Brazil GP 2008

[ernos5]

Massa have one thing to do - win. Hamilton had one thing to do, keep Vettel behind him, he failed. Hamilton won because of Glock.

=D>

[myurr]

Massa have one thing to do - win. Hamilton had one thing to do, keep Vettel behind him, he failed. Hamilton won because of Glock.

=D>

ernos5 and the tifosi had one thing to do, lose with grace. They failed.

Hamilton nearly lost out because Glock gambled on the tyres. Ultimately that gamble didn't work out and Hamilton sealed the deal - how is that Hamilton only winning because of Glock.

Take a leaf out of Massa's book and accept the result with dignity. I applaud the way that Massa has handled himself throughout most of the season, with the "Sutil should have given way" in Valencia comments the only minor grumble I have, and the way he has fought for the title. He produced some amazing drives along the way.

Equally Hamilton bested him over the course of the season, and also produced some of the best drives of all time (Silverstone in particular), and that too should be applauded.

[Sawtooth-spike]

Massa have one thing to do - win. Hamilton had one thing to do, keep Vettel behind him, he failed. Hamilton won because of Glock.

=D>

Note Quite true.

Lewis had to finsh 5th or Above. Which we did. how is that failing.

If Glock had of come in for Inters we would not be having this argument as he would of come out behind lewis. Glock stayed on slick had a Dog of a lap as did the other on slicks. So That was that.

Massa Does deaserve alot of respect, He has put right alot of the issue i had with his driving. He did what needed to be done but fell short by a point.

Glatz to Lewis, Made up for last year!

[tinhouse]

Also Martin Whitmarsh claimed in an interview on BBC Radio on Monday that they'd already told Hamilton not to tussle with Vettel if he made a move. They knew he'd take Glock before the race was over from watching his GPS readings, so told him to play it safe with Vettel.

So all Hamilton really had to do was take Glock, which he did. Just.

Matt.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Massa have one thing to do - win. Hamilton had one thing to do, keep Vettel behind him, he failed. Hamilton won because of Glock.

=D>

Note Quite true.

Lewis had to finsh 5th or Above. Which we did. how is that failing.

If Glock had of come in for Inters we would not be having this argument as he would of come out behind lewis. Glock stayed on slick had a Dog of a lap as did the other on slicks. So That was that.

Massa Does deaserve alot of respect, He has put right alot of the issue i had with his driving. He did what needed to be done but fell short by a point.

Glatz to Lewis, Made up for last year!

My thoughts exactly sawtooth,

Lewis had to finsh 5th or Above. Which we did. how is that failing.

=D>

Had Timo pitted for inters (or the Wet tyre as its meant to be called now ) he wouldn't have even been on the same piece of track as Lewis & Vettel, he did pit, it put him out of position, and this was later "corrected" (for want of a better word) by the fact he was left with tyres completely useless for the job.

I'm not critising Glock for gambling btw, I think he did the right thing (even though if he HAD pit like everyone else Lewis wouldn't be getting stick for supposedly winning the title by default and it would have made everyones life a little bit easier). If I were Glock I'd have probably gambled on the same thing, why not, its the only chance of some good points? Had the rain come ONE LAP earlier we'd be prasing the Toyota's straegy. Insted those without a leg to stand on are playing the role of spin doctor to make it seem like Hamilton won only because of Glock strategy. Forgetting of course that had Glock not pitted Hamilton would have finished 5th anyway. Either way, Hamilton would have finished fifth, so really there's no point in trying to suggest otherwise.

"Hamilton had to keep Vettel behind him" did he? Because I seem to recall basic mathematics dictate that he had to finish 5th. Oh wait he did that, with Vettel 4th. I see, so If Hamilton HAD gambled, tryed a last ditch move on Vettel and lost it all, the same people would now be critising him (quite rightly btw) for making a stupid and needless move.

I guess you can't please all of the people all of the time. And some people you just can't please at all, because no matter how hard you try, when you do what they ask, they complain about something else.

Also I agree that Massa deserves HUGE respect. His demenour after the race (a race in which he was frankly the best out there by miles!) was absolutely brilliant. Such a gentleman, and a true sportsman. He did everything asked of him but sadly for him it wasn't enough. I'm looking forward now to see how he uses this as the impoteus for a fight next season.

EDIT:
Couple of articles I found you might like to read:
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528, ... 56,00.html
This first one is Lewis talking bout not really being all too bothered about beating Schumi's record 7-titles (sounds much like Schumi himself with regards to his attitude to records)

the second is an interview with Luca Di Montezemolo:
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528, ... 10,00.html
Who like Massa has been gracous in defeat (although pleased with the WCC obviously)

and finally one with schumi:
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=44534
Where he says that Felipe should leave that race with his head held high, with which I totally agree. He also tipped Lewis to be a possible contender to break his records.

Now, Schumi has said on a fair few occasions that he rates Hamilton highly. I'm not saying that he's therefore the best, but, Schumi does know what he's talking about, he rated Massa highly when many were doubters and now look. All I'm saying is that you don't have to like the guy, you don't even have to rate him that highly (it is after all your opinion) but at least respect the man's ability, and don;t let your hate cloud your judgement. I COULD NOT STAND Schumi as a competetor. I was hugely anti-schumi, and I didn;t and still don't regard him to be the best ever. I do however have the clarity to accept that he's the most successful driver ever, and is clearly one of the best of all time.

[donskar]

Ciro asked:

Just out of curiosity, what do you mean by revisionist history, donskar? Is there a stalinist, official version, of the history of "dominance in Formula One"? C'mon, old man, cheer up! Where has your sense of humour gone?

Revisionist history: a slanted view of reality, rearranged to suit one's own biases. Often the result of one actually NOT knowing history, but just exposing one's ignorance or bias. In this case, to say that the end of the "dream team" caused Ferrai's performance to drop is to ignore simple facts: in the 2 years since the "dream team" dissolved, Ferrari won 3 our of 4 major F1 championships - WCC twice; WDC once. (BTW, when listing the members of the "dream team," let's not forget Martinelli, head of the engine dept. His departure hurt engine reliability.)

Sense of humor? Sorry about tone. My intent is always to contribute positively to this very fine forum. Too many 12 hour days at work!

[DaveKillens]

Spencifer_Murphy , I couldn't have said it any better.

[andartop]

On the bit with the old points system I think it was quite clear I made a cynic comment for all those people who have been "what if scenario"-ing during the whole year (and some still do).
As far as LH finishing 5th is concerned, he definitely did what he had to, people blaming Glock about it, or attributing LH's Championship on Glock, are simply out of their minds. Massa lost this Championship quite a few races ago, not in Brazil. Had he been driving that good all year long he would be Champion now. Congrats to Lewis then.
BUT, and that is a big BUT, what a lame way to win a Championship!!! ALL he had to do was finish in the top 5, and he STRUGGLED to do so while he was driving arguably one of the 2 best cars out there. It takes nothing away from his Championship, but should at least put some doubt in the minds of people who consider him the next Senna...

[myurr]

BUT, and that is a big BUT, what a lame way to win a Championship!!! ALL he had to do was finish in the top 5, and he STRUGGLED to do so while he was driving arguably one of the 2 best cars out there. It takes nothing away from his Championship, but should at least put some doubt in the minds of people who consider him the next Senna...

Oh come on, stop trying to find ways to crap on the guys parade. The finishing order was hugely affected by the weather and an unusually tight field.

Had Hamilton pitted one lap earlier for dry tyres at the beginning, and one lap later for the intermediates at the end, then he could have comfortably finished 2nd or 3rd. Don't forget he effectively one stopped the race (in terms of running on dry tyres) on a green track with a car renowned for chewing it's tyres.

As it was he was caught out by people taking a risk that paid off for them. He didn't exactly have a race like Massa in Silverstone.

[timbo]

As it was he was caught out by people taking a risk that paid off for them. He didn't exactly have a race like Massa in Silverstone.

OMG... You call people to be reasonable with Hamilton, but at the same time mention that race as arguement. You don't know what setup Ferrari had, and Massa showed in Brazil that he is capable for driving and winning in difficult conditions.

At least Massa hadn't races like LH at Canada, France and Bahrain... sorry, couldn't resist

[Spencifer_Murphy]

On the bit with the old points system I think it was quite clear I made a cynic comment for all those people who have been "what if scenario"-ing during the whole year (and some still do).

Hey andartop, just wanted to say that I've made a couple of references to that "Old points system what-if scenario" that you posted. I realise my posts may have come across as ridiculing your post. Not at all, my references to the "what if the old points system had been used" argument was purely to argue against those who actually do hold the view that LH's championship is somehow less as a result of the afore mentioned scenario.

In short, never meant to have a pop at you, I intended to argue against the argument that you fielded, and I did get that you stated it was a viewpoint that you didn't nessecarily share. No harm done I hope.

Oh and timbo's right, Massa's frankly dire race at Silverstone was clearly a one-off, it could be that his setup was very poor in the wet (like Lewis' setup was not the best for the wet at Brazil), this is a theory backed up by the fact that BOTH Ferrari's struggled in the wet conditions on that day. Massa's performance (or rather lack thereof) that day is not reflective of his season as a whole, if it was he wouldn't have ended up just one point of eventual champion, Lewis Hamilton.

If we are to excuse, or call for the excuse of, Lewis for his (sometimes rather too frequent) occasional off-form displays, we should offer the same courtesy to his competetors.

[ben_watkins]

The poor Ferrari form in the wet was due to mainly mechanical reasons and not just driver related. If you remember Ferrari spent many €'s and kms testing on deliberatly soaked circuits, such as Mugello in order to find the reasons and fix it.

Don't forget Kimi also had big problems in the rain until such time as the mechanical fix was found.

[andartop]

BUT, and that is a big BUT, what a lame way to win a Championship!!! ALL he had to do was finish in the top 5, and he STRUGGLED to do so while he was driving arguably one of the 2 best cars out there. It takes nothing away from his Championship, but should at least put some doubt in the minds of people who consider him the next Senna...

Oh come on, stop trying to find ways to crap on the guys parade. The finishing order was hugely affected by the weather and an unusually tight field.

Had Hamilton pitted one lap earlier for dry tyres at the beginning, and one lap later for the intermediates at the end, then he could have comfortably finished 2nd or 3rd. Don't forget he effectively one stopped the race (in terms of running on dry tyres) on a green track with a car renowned for chewing it's tyres.

As it was he was caught out by people taking a risk that paid off for them. He didn't exactly have a race like Massa in Silverstone.

I did write "It takes nothing away from his Championship.." on the same bloody post you 're quoting!!!!!!!!!!! Regardless of the reasons, it still was a very average (the least) race performance for a driver to win a Championship in, that's all I said! And to prove my point, he almost lost it!!!! How lame is that? What does Massa's performance in Silverstone has to do with Lewis' in Brazil, I can't see... The subject of this thread is still Brazil GP 2008, right???

[axle]

RE: Silverstone.

The fault was entirely the teams' refusal to use the extreme wets when it was CLEAR that the inters were shot/not working.

This was yet another case of the Ferrari team not working well. The team cost Massa the title in my opinion.

[West]

I am glad I stayed to the finish of this race (can't say that about most of the other races). I thought the Glock thing was pretty funny. I had no idea he was on slicks, but if I were him I would have stayed out too and try to get a good jump while everybody was in the pits. In the end he still got some decent points. He hasn't been a fan of Lewis driving (I think he made some comments in Monza) so I really doubt he let him by. This conspiracy theory stuff is just stupid. There are a lot of Ferrari personnel that admit that Hamilton deserved the title; why some of the stupider Tifosi and other Ferrari fans can't accept that is beyond me.

I was just checking out F1-Live and reading Anthony Hamilton's comment about quitting the sport because of racism... just shows for a highly technical sport, there are idiots abound. Kind of the same crap that Obama has to face tonight.