Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[dans79]

Hydrolysis has a low efficiency (40% ?) , why use electricity to produce H and O and burn them in a combustion engine (efficiency 40% ?) when you can use those electricity in the MGUK (efficiency 90%) ?

The MGU-K has a limited output, so once you reach the limit, any energy have left is just being wasted. Thus the next logical step is to come up with a way to benefit from the extra energy so it doesn't go to waste.

It doesn’t “go to waste”, it’s used to drive the compressor in e-boost mode. Obviously this is a relatively low efficiency but it’s not wasted and it’s 100% legal and known to exist.

My response was aimed at the fact that you can't just dump everything you have into the MGU-K, so you have to do something with whats left. I wasn't trying to suggest a specific use case.

[henry]

The MGU-K has a limited output, so once you reach the limit, any energy have left is just being wasted. Thus the next logical step is to come up with a way to benefit from the extra energy so it doesn't go to waste.

It doesn’t “go to waste”, it’s used to drive the compressor in e-boost mode. Obviously this is a relatively low efficiency but it’s not wasted and it’s 100% legal and known to exist.

My response was aimed at the fact that you can't just dump everything you have into the MGU-K, so you have to do something with whats left. I wasn't trying to suggest a specific use case.

Sorry, I’m in the wrong here. If they have more than 6.4MJ from the ES to spend on a quali lap they would need to find something else to do with it. “Extra-deploy”, as mentioned above by @BassVirolla would be one way. The MGU-K power would depend on the power they choose to drive the MGU-H with. If they choose 90kW the average MGU-K power would be around around 105kW, assuming equal time division on the transfer cycle.

I don’t know of any other physical mechanisms. I had contemplated “extra-deploy” before but hadn’t found a use case for it.

[.poz]

It doesn’t “go to waste”, it’s used to drive the compressor in e-boost mode. Obviously this is a relatively low efficiency but it’s not wasted and it’s 100% legal and known to exist.

My response was aimed at the fact that you can't just dump everything you have into the MGU-K, so you have to do something with whats left. I wasn't trying to suggest a specific use case.

Sorry, I’m in the wrong here. If they have more than 6.4MJ from the ES to spend on a quali lap they would need to find something else to do with it.

ES->MGUH is unlimited...

so you can
open the waste gate to gain a bit of power form ICE runnig compressor by electrical power
or
build a heavier turbo compressor and use it to store a small amount of energy continuously switching the flux ES to MGUH MGUH to MGUK (both unlimited)

[sosic2121]

build a heavier turbo compressor and use it to store a small amount of energy continuously switching the flux ES to MGUH MGUH to MGUK (both unlimited)

I also had this idea. But would heavier turbo negatively impact turning performance of the car or is that effect negligible?

AFAIK rules dictate for turbo to be parallel with crankshaft.

[Tommy Cookers]

the 'gyroscopic' effect will in proportion to yaw rate change slightly the front:rear 'weight' distribution

similar effects from PU etc rotating parts etc already do this
in principle the effects tend to cancel each other or reinforce each other
the rotations are all around longitudinal axes - this is relatively harmless

as negligible work is done by the 'gyroscopic' reactions the damping effect on the demanded yaw is negligible ?

and/but why would we want a high H inertia - wouldn't it hinder the post-corner E-spoolups ?

[saviour stivala]

My response was aimed at the fact that you can't just dump everything you have into the MGU-K, so you have to do something with whats left. I wasn't trying to suggest a specific use case.

Sorry, I’m in the wrong here. If they have more than 6.4MJ from the ES to spend on a quali lap they would need to find something else to do with it.

ES->MGUH is unlimited...

so you can
open the waste gate to gain a bit of power form ICE runnig compressor by electrical power
or
build a heavier turbo compressor and use it to store a small amount of energy continuously switching the flux ES to MGUH MGUH to MGUK (both unlimited)

“ES > MGU-H is unlimited”. But what is max SOC of ES?.

[sosic2121]

the 'gyroscopic' effect will in proportion to yaw rate change slightly the front:rear 'weight' distribution

similar effects from PU etc rotating parts etc already do this
in principle the effects tend to cancel each other or reinforce each other
the rotations are all around longitudinal axes - this is relatively harmless

as negligible work is done by the 'gyroscopic' reactions the damping effect on the demanded yaw is negligible ?

and/but why would we want a high H inertia - wouldn't it hinder the post-corner E-spoolups ?

But why would we stop/slow down turbo at all?
I believe throttle bodies are open anyway. Also, hot blowing is an option, especially during Q.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think those 286 kJ are added to the the system, not removed. We could discuss the vagaries of energies per mol of molecules versus per mol of bonds, but it would be grossly off topic.
I think the two key points raised by Platinum are that you are adding energy to your input gas, potentially even recycling energy that otherwise would go to waste, and that you might end up with a more thorough or faster combustion. And both points probably have merit to them, come to think of it. The second one could even work with very small amounts of O3.

It`s fine with me ...
Now regarding that very small amounts of ozone, I said here that you could build a little Hofmann voltameter (viewtopic.php?p=868343#p868343) primarily to produce H2 - which is dangerous had it`s not controlled - but in certain condition (e.g. having an overvoltage at the anode electrode) could provide small quantities of ozone coz the air within that particular area is ionized with that electrical charge ...

IMHO it's just a way to waste energy

Hydrolysis has a low efficiency (40% ?) , why use electricity to produce H and O and burn them in a combustion engine (efficiency 40% ?) when you can use those electricity in the MGUK (efficiency 90%) ?

About ozone

the only advantage i can see in ozone in a fuel limited engine is that it is a "more packed" form of oxygen, so to burn the same amount of fuel you need a smaller volume of air; lower turbo pressure an so more energy to recover from MGUH and less energy wasted in the compression phase of ICE

Read the papers posted and see the other benefits.

[PlatinumZealot]

By use of an Ozone generator you are doing two things:
. . . . .
Using excess energy from the battery without going through the FIA sensors.

Is this possible?

I think the battery is allowed to run other "auxilliaries" the ozone gemerator would be classed as one i suspect.

[gruntguru]

By use of an Ozone generator you are doing two things:
. . . . .
Using excess energy from the battery without going through the FIA sensors.

Is this possible?

I think the battery is allowed to run other "auxilliaries" the ozone gemerator would be classed as one i suspect.

From memory the rules severely limit energy storage for auxiliaries.

[henry]

There are two category of ancillaries.

“Engine ancillaries” must be driven from the ICE or using the MGU-K energy pathways.

“Other ancillaries” with unlimited energy flow from the ES.

It’s up to peoples’ reasoning which category an Ozone, or any other, generator supplying the engine falls into.

[godlameroso]

Sorry, I’m in the wrong here. If they have more than 6.4MJ from the ES to spend on a quali lap they would need to find something else to do with it.

ES->MGUH is unlimited...

so you can
open the waste gate to gain a bit of power form ICE runnig compressor by electrical power
or
build a heavier turbo compressor and use it to store a small amount of energy continuously switching the flux ES to MGUH MGUH to MGUK (both unlimited)

“ES > MGU-H is unlimited”. But what is max SOC of ES?.

The ES itself has unlimited capacity(of course it's limited by battery chemistry). Max SOC per lap is 4MJ, so even if the ES can store 10MJ, no more than 4MJ can be used per lap. In addition to the 4MJ to MGU-K requirement, you are also not allowed to pool more than 4MJ. In other words there is a virtual battery that is capped at 4MJ. So if you harvest 4MJ and spend 4MJ that is ok. If you harvest 5MJ and spend 4 that's ok. If you harvest 5 and spend 5, that's not ok. If you harvest 6 and spend 4, then send the other 2 after spending the 4, that's ok.

So you could harvest 6, send 4 to the MGU-K and then 2 to the MGU-H, and that would be ok, as long as the virtual battery was within the 4MJ SOC. Because the virtual battery can be depleted and refilled independent of laps.

[djones]

Talk on multiple other forums suggests Mercedes and Honda now know what Ferrari are doing.

Two teams are said to be considering a protest (presumably the two Honda teams).

Toto has allegedly said they need to implement it on their car in an interview with Sky.

[godlameroso]

Talk on multiple other forums suggests Mercedes and Honda now know what Ferrari are doing.

Two teams are said to be considering a protest (presumably the two Honda teams).

Toto has allegedly said they need to implement it on their car in an interview with Sky.

What is being done?

[PlatinumZealot]

There are two category of ancillaries.

“Engine ancillaries” must be driven from the ICE or using the MGU-K energy pathways.

“Other ancillaries” with unlimited energy flow from the ES.

It’s up to peoples’ reasoning which category an Ozone, or any other, generator supplying the engine falls into.

Hmm. An off-shoot mguk energy pathway would be applicable then. To my understanding the mguk is also the alternator correct?