Alonso's efforts in Renault's uprise?

[marcush.]

I guess ,a driver of Alonsos stature is definitely an asset to a Team ,especially for Renault (they got the job done twice with him driving before ,so this was removing one big question right at the start of the season).
So in a way ,this was a special situation for Alonso and Renault.Plus Renault needed to win to keep the man.

As for the engineering abilities of drivers ,really I think you don´t need that.
What you need is a very good memory or better experience,a good stock of reliable
data of what you did when this and that happened ,to keep the engineers who don ot have a clue whats going out there on the track on their toes .So these chaps contribute gut feeling and a data bank of experience ( Mario Andretti )to channel
and direct the combined forces of hundreds of boffins into something useful to win races...

Still you need some real heavyweights in the team who Know why the car is NOT performing and what is the next key step today-tomorrow -next year -to get the most out of the tyres.
Look at Toro Rosso ,clearly maximising the available potential better than Redbull
or Williams going one time fast one time slow and totally at loss to explain why
and unable to predict where .Would Alonso have won in a Toro Rosso ? you bet.
Would he have won in a Redbull or a Williams?

[pgj]

I have no doubts at all about Nando's driving ability. Apportioning credit to him for driving a brick is something entirely different. It is clear that the Renault improved from its early season performance and Nando must have had some input into the development of the car. Giving him sole credit for the improvement is probably wide of the mark and detracts from the excellent job that Renault did as a team over the course of the season.

[timbo]

Having a top class driver, a proven champion is already a great boost of motivation for an engineering team.
My only doubt is that maybe in attempt (successful) to lure Alonso for next few years Flavio and Pat put to many resourses into a developement of 2008 car, which may prove costly for next season...

[WhiteBlue]

... As for the engineering abilities of drivers ,really I think you don´t need that. ...

I would have objections to that statement. Two of the best ever drivers (Senna, Schumacher) were known to be maniacs about the technical side of their race cars. They spend endless hours with engineers and never stopped thinking about it.

I believe that this is Kimi's Achilles heel. He would be a multiple champ if he was more focussed on the engineering side of the job.

[tarzoon]

I believe that this is Kimi's Achilles heel. He would be a multiple champ if he was more focussed on the engineering side of the job.

I have to agree with you! Kimi's fast, possibly the fastest guy there. And he has 'cojones' and madness mixed in good measure (remember that run through the smoke in Spa when Panis engine blew?), yet cars are getting more and more technical.

Nevertheless there are cases like Rosberg: he's known for have a very deep technical understanding of F1, yet he fails to deliver. It's true that Williams is still an old fashioned 'garagiste' company, ruled by 2 people. I wonder how much faster he would develop cars in result-driven teams such as McMerc or Ferrari?

As for Alonso, he's got everything in good measure, no questions about that. Winning 2 WDCs against one of the best drivers ever is not something everyone does as a past-time.

[ISLAMATRON]

Again I say Alonso didnt win those WDC's as much as Michilen did... anyone care to prove me wrong? How many WDC's or WCC's or even races has Renault won since Michilen has left?

Alonso was up against a rookie at McLrane and couldnt prove himself to be the clear number 1... all that perference crap is just that... Alonso was being paid more by Mclaren for that 1 year than they had given Hamilton over his entire career in the lower formula. Alonso is very good, but he is not great... he enjoyed a huge competitive advantage for a short period of time, somewhat akin to the Hill/JV era at Williams... they won 2 WDC's, but will they be remembered at one or two of "the greats"?

[Metar]

You and your Michelin's cup again.

So Senna won the Honda-McLaren cup and Schumacher won five straight Bridgestone-Ferrari championships? Every champion in history had a technical advantage at for at least a part of his season. Tyres, of all things, is something that more than one team had. If Renault made the best use of them, so be it - Ferrari made better use of the Bridgestones compared to the others, too.

Plus, I think calling Hamilton "just a rookie" is more of an insult towards him than towards Alonso. Unlike most rookies, his time in the cockpit didn't make him slower. The wage-difference is understandable - nobody pays a GP2 driver as much as a lowest-tier F1 driver, never mind compared to a two-time champion who just defected from a championship-winning team.


The technical side is very important. Badoer and de la Rosa, mentioned before, may not be the fastest drivers - but they sure as hell live a comfortable life and get to drive Formula 1 cars for thousands of laps per season. The input of a driver, I'd imagine, is very important for engineers to determine the cause of a problem, and probably also to fix and stabilize it. Accurate assessments of tyres and parts and the right corrections to a setup are what turns a fast car into something that wins a race.

[Conceptual]

I cannot wait till January when we see the 2009 cars roll out!

I am expecting a small gap from pole to caboose, so it should be some good racing.

And again, Alonso is very good. He is a 2X WDC, no matter how you slice it. I actually believe that Fernando winning in 2005 is what made Schumi decide to retire, and the run in 2006 was an all out assault to get the 8th Championship, which Ferrari, Schumacher, and all of their money could NOT take away from Renault.

I guess Fernando's Michelins caused Schumachers engine to blow in Suzuka 06? Because THAT was the finishing point for that championship.

Oh wait, I promised to ignore Islamitron's posts.

Ah well, at least it isnt violent yet...

[ISLAMATRON]

You and your Michelin's cup again.

So Senna won the Honda-McLaren cup and Schumacher won five straight Bridgestone-Ferrari championships? Every champion in history had a technical advantage at for at least a part of his season. Tyres, of all things, is something that more than one team had. If Renault made the best use of them, so be it - Ferrari made better use of the Bridgestones compared to the others, too.

Plus, I think calling Hamilton "just a rookie" is more of an insult towards him than towards Alonso. Unlike most rookies, his time in the cockpit didn't make him slower. The wage-difference is understandable - nobody pays a GP2 driver as much as a lowest-tier F1 driver, never mind compared to a two-time champion who just defected from a championship-winning team.

Yes Senna won the Honda-McLaren(which won every race but 1 in '88) cup, and beat an all time great Prost in doing so... who did Alonso beat? Fisichella? hmmm Prost versus Fisi.. Lets compare resumes... or maybe not. Shumi had proven himself a championship caliber driver even b4 joining Ferrari, and then won more championships with them. Alonso won with Renault, moved to McLaren and then allowed a rookie to take too many points away from him to win his third, he then realised quickly how deep of doo doo he was in against Hamilton and turn tail and ran back to Renault where he could possibly get another field topping techincal advantage for another WDC.

Michilin won every race in '05 except for 1(USGP where Michilin didn run), if that is not the Michilin cup than I dont know what is. Alonso deserved that WDC becuz he beat Fisi in the same equipment(whoop ti doo) and beat KIMI who was in a faster less reliable McLaren. Forget not that tire changes were banned for '05.... the only time ever in F1... if that aint an asterisk I dont know what is. In '06 Michilin had the early advantage(won 7 of 1st 9 races) and then Brigestone(won 7 of last 9 races) finally got it together... or maybe Michilen quit development cause they found out they were done with f1... 1 way or the other.

If Alonso could have beat Hamilton a couple more times in 2007(is it too much to ask to for a 2XWDC to outpace a rookie?) he could have had his 3rd WDC and muc more respect from me... but he couldnt.

Hamilton was the greenest of all the notable rookies in the last several years when he had his first race. He had 1 year in GP2 whereas Piquet Jr had a couple years in GP2 and was test driver in Renault last year. Heikki also had a year of test driving. Its no insult its the facts. Yes Hamilton was "just a rookie" and now he is the youngest ever WDC.(and Yes, I saw him cross the finish line 1st in 6 races this year and he clearly deserved the title)

If a 2xWDC does not have the mental strength or the personality to outdual a rookie how great of a champion can he be. MAny say that Alonso was disadvantaged at McLaren? How so? Some say because Hamilton is "English", but yet Mika was finnish and the Coulthard was not given the upper hand. Anyone who has watched McLaren can see that they are probly the 1 team that takes the least preferences towards 1 driver or another(sometimes to their detriment)... No other team has let them race like McLaren has.

Alonso is good driver(definatly top 5 currently), but probably not a great one... but he may very well be excellent at helping the team develope the car.

[Metar]

Maybe said "Michelin advantage" in the opening races of '06 was down to Renault winning almost all (or actually all? Don't remember) of them while Ferrari were still slow, and the Bridgestone advantage at the end down to Ferrari's stronger package?

Ferrari chose an inferior tyre-manufacturer for 2005 - their problem. Jordan and Minardi picked it, too! Surely they don't deserve to be called "2nd-best team in the Bridgestone F1 '05 cup", do they? A tyre-package is just part of the car - whoever gets the best cards has the best shot at winning. This season, then, could be called "The Non-frozen engines cup", because Ferrari and McLaren engines dominated over Renault and Honda engines. How can you argue my logic, they didn't win just three races!

Alonso and Hamilton, pace-wise, can be considered a modern-age Prost-Senna rivalry. Two equally fast drivers (and for that matter, it doesn't matter that Hamilton was a rookie - his pace is what counts) that dueled furiously, with one of them moving out at the end of the season. Fisi Vs. Prost doesn't matter - Alonso beat Fisi far more soundly than Senna beat Prost. It is almost too much to ask of everyone on the grid to outpace Hamilton - I'm no fan of his, but his pace is phenomenal. Hamilton was slower in the first few races - but unlike Vettel & co, his learning-curve only lasted four-five races as far as raw pace is concerned, though some argue that his race-craft still isn't perfected. For the record, Hamilton only beat Alonso on countback.

Alonso moved to a weaker Renault, a car that was 5th, 6th or even 7th-fastest at the start of the season - and through developments by the team and input from him, they turned it into a race-winner that scored more points in the last third of the season than any other driver. Hamilton remained at the strong McLaren team, winning the opening race of the season - in what was, throughout the season, always at least 2nd-fastest - so if anyone was looking for a field-topping advantage, it's the one who drove the McLaren.

Which, of course, reaches my last point: You seem to grasp that F1 isn't a spec-series - but instead of realizing it's a team's sport as well as a driver's championship, you divide the sport to categories, not by acknowledging the driver's efforts, but only giving them credit for beating their own category - Michelin's Cup, McLaren-Honda championship, Not-really-frozen-engines Cup, Force India Lawnmoving Competition, name it as you wish. At the same time, in the points-system thread, you call for an unbelievably imbalanced bias towards wins. How much will you complain that "Raikkonen only won the Ferrari cup! Hamilton should get 10000 points as well for winning the McLaren Deathmatch Shootout!"?

[jwielage]

ISLAMATRON, While you do make some valid points the tone of your argument is so brazenly anti-Alonso that I cannot take you seriously.

If Alonso is only top 5 who would you put in front of him and why? Now before you answer this question please provide empirical evidence that supports your answer. In addition, this evidence will be subject to the same level of scrutiny that you have placed on Alonso's career.

While I try not to be confrontational about these sort of things, I find your comments somewhat arrogant. Matters such as this are extremely subjective, and by not being able to concede that your argument is inherently offensive because it somehow assumes your superior intelligence. Its not that I don't see your point, I just don't agree with your conclusion. Lastly, no one on this thread is that interested in your opinions that we need to hear them twice.

[ISLAMATRON]

The renault is not a "race winning car" no more than the STR was a "race winning car" for Vettle in Monza or Jordan was a "race winning car" in 2003 for FISI in Brazil or the Ligier was a "race winning car" in 1996 for Panis in Monaco.

The renault's wins this year were lucky, right place right time... pitting the same lap as your teammate crashes type luck.

That same luck does not win you 5 or 6 races as Hamilton or Massa did this year, quite the contrary, the luck factor took some races away from them both.

The renault did not win a race on pure pace... they kinda fell into their lap and it was their responsibility to not drop the ball.

Was the Button of Honda a race winning car when Alonso's Wheel fell off?

2 teams had race winning cars this year Ferrari & McLAren. BMW, STR & Renault got Lucky.... so did Heikki.

Who was the last driver to win the WDC or team to win the WCC on just dumb luck?

I'm not complaining, I am just putting things into context... if Kimi wins the WDC while winning every race then he clearly deserves the WDC, especially when resoundingly beating a very fast MAssa... but that doesnt make hima better driver than Hamilton or Alonso who were in inferior equipment. There are reasons for all the drivers victories, and the drivers who win in as many different ways as possible prove themselves to be the best. Alonso has proven he can win the WDC with a weak teammate and on superior tires, I'm just waiting to see him win in another situation. All the drivers in F1 are good, I'm mostly interested in the great ones, and specfically the greatest of the greats such as Senna, Shumy & Prost. No driver on the current grid has reached that level, not even Alonso, even though he beat Shumy with superior tires. Thats all I mean.

[ISLAMATRON]

ISLAMATRON, While you do make some valid points the tone of your argument is so brazenly anti-Alonso that I cannot take you seriously.

If Alonso is only top 5 who would you put in front of him and why? Now before you answer this question please provide empirical evidence that supports your answer. In addition, this evidence will be subject to the same level of scrutiny that you have placed on Alonso's career.

While I try not to be confrontational about these sort of things, I find your comments somewhat arrogant. Matters such as this are extremely subjective, and by not being able to concede that your argument is inherently offensive because it somehow assumes your superior intelligence. Its not that I don't see your point, I just don't agree with your conclusion. Lastly, no one on this thread is that interested in your opinions that we need to hear them twice.

I'm not anti-Alonso I just dont put him on a pedestal like many other F1 fans. If I'm anti anyone its anti-Kimi, I hate to see such talent wasted on stupidity... Head to head I would have to Rate Hamilton over Alonso, because they were quite even at McLaren and now HAmilton has clearly improved. Cant really compare Alonso to MAssa or Kimi but he could easily be better then either(or possibly not as good)... but then you get down to guys like Kubica, Webber, Truilli, Rosberg, Heidfeld Button & Rubans... none of them have the equipment to show off their talent... and thats one of the downfalls of F1. It would be coo1 to see a GP 1 series run along side F1... and that would determine the WDC while F1 was for the WCC. Bumop the GP2 cars up a couple hundred HP and let em go at it... that would be something to watch... a spec series with the best drivers in the world.

If you dont like what I have to say... or you are too sensitive to how I say it than dont read... quite simple actually.

[Metar]

By your token, Schumacher only proved that he could win WDCs when in vastly superior cars - and nobody in the world will argue that the '00-'04 Ferraris weren't in a class of their own (ignoring a brief spell of actual tyre-superiority through borderline-legal construction), or that the Bennetton of '95 was also vastly superior (32 points margin), and of course his teammates never were quite as fast as he was - I see surprising similarity to your accusations against Alonso. On the other hand, he also won the championship also by crashing with his main rival and narrowly missed out when he did that again in '97, so that could could as winning the championship in two different ways. Schumacher beat Hill, Hakkinen, Coulthard, Alesi, Alonso, Raikkonen, Montoya, and every other driver on the '95 and '00-'04 grids using a vastly superior car. Alonso beat Kimi and Schumacher in '05 and '06 respectively in superior machinery - either tyres, their usage, reliability, or whatever - but remember that the fastest car in the world won't win a race with a bad driver.

Please, do me a favor. We have no idea how much and if Hamilton improved this season - every way of measuring is gone. Kovalainen is his teammate, but we can't even compare his gaps to Fisico's gaps, because that one moved away as well. Put Hamilton and Alonso in the same car for a season, or him against anyone who was recently measured against Alonso, and then you car argue. The only change is slightly more maturity, but it's the same banzai overtaking-moves, the same likelihood of throwing it all away as he had on his debut season. I could just as well argue that it's Alonso who got to grips with himself, stopped the aggressiveness and hot-headedness that might've cost him the '07 championship, and drove a remarkable finish to the season.

Button? Rubens? You're being too harsh. Rubens is not a bad driver, but definitely not close to a top-5 driver. He was thoroughly outpaced by Schumacher. Button isn't much faster either. Heidfeld is a wildcard - almost matching Kubica, sometimes beating him - but Trulli was slower than Alonso when they drove together. GP1? You're starting to sound dangerously like a Bernie-Max hybrid.

[ISLAMATRON]

I dont agree that Shumy could win in only vastly superior cars, but that is a debateable point. I'm not a fan of Shumacher but his enourmous talat was quite evident to me. I never liked tha fact that he wouldnt accept a strong teammate, It's not the measure of a true champion to me, something that also bothered me about Prost, and now Alonso. Scumy won many races in many different ways and WDC's as well. And he came close several times when in an inferior car. Schumeys total body of work is self evident, Alono's is incomplete, as is every other driver on the grid save for maybe Rubans. Schumy is still an asshole though... never really liked him, never will.

I see a big improvement in Hamilton's driving. But he still makes mistakes, as does every driver, even Alonso(He threw a possible Canada win away), KIMI & Massa.

I didnt say all those drivers were better than Alonso, I said we cant really tell if they are.

And thats why it would be so entertaining to have a GP1 spec series, alongside F1, not as a replacement. Everybody in the same cars, same tires, no pit stops, balls to the wall who is the best. How could that not be entertaining?