Alonso's efforts in Renault's uprise?

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
jeff8407
jeff8407
0
Joined: 03 Sep 2008, 21:27

Re: Alonso's efforts in Renault's uprise?

Post

Conceptual, do you really think the gap among the cars is going to be small? With Kers, slick tires, and the new regulations, I think we'll see a much larger gap, especially the first half of the season.

Personally, I think Honda will be the most improved team for the first half of the season, but BMW could surprise me.

I'm also intrigued by a Newey designed car with the new rules--It makes me think of what Red Bull would have done with Ferrari power in 2008?

User avatar
Spencifer_Murphy
0
Joined: 11 Apr 2004, 23:29
Location: London, England, UK

Re: Alonso's efforts in Renault's uprise?

Post

I have said before that in terms of Mclaren's pace in 2007 I feel Alonso had VERY LITTLE to do with it...he never stepped foot into the MP4-22 until it was already testing. Any real problems with that car would have been unfixable (is that even a word?! :? ) by the time Alonso tested that Mclaren. As a result I concluded that huis supposed 0.6seconds he brought to Mclaren is codswallop and frankly taking credit for the hard work of the hundreds of people who worked on the design of that car.

HOWEVER, having said all that I have never said Alonso is not a good development driver. I feel he is, If we look at Renault's rise from 2001 to the "golden years" of 2005-2006 the car was being consistanly improved and was clearly being developed around him (like the Ferrari was being built around Schumi) [come to think of it maybe a lack of that sort of detail attention is what left Alonso unhappy at Mclaren?] anyway...

Regardless of any "superior tyre" talk, a tyre no matter how much better can only benifit the car it is designed to be used on. I.E if we conducted a test, and stuck Michelin tyres on that years Ferrari it would likely go slower, and likewise sticking Bridgestone tyres on that years Renault would have a similar effect.

The fact of the matter is that the Renault/Michelin/Alonso package was stronger than that Ferrari/Bridgestone/Schumacher package in 2006. That does not however deminish Alonso's abilities. It is no coinscidence that the performance of the 2008 Renault has improved greatly towards the end of the season (A point which nicely backs up by "Alonso@Mclaren" theory - Alonso comes to Renault and its stil a dog of a car, BUT by the end of the season, after considerable development time improvements are show, proving a driver can't improve a car by 0.6seconds in winter testing alone.) It does also however show that Fernando, over the course of the season, in conjuction with his team, has developed that car from "dog" to "Respectable Runner".

Yes Islamatron is right, the wins had a certain luck about them BUT, luck or not the Renault R28 circa Melbourne would NOT have won those races.

No disrespect intended at all Islamatron but you are clearly a Hamilton fan (nothing wrong with that) but from reading your posts I fear you are anti-Alonso as a direct result. Its fine to be anti-alonso (in the same way its fine to be anti-anybody) but i fear that your doing a great driver (and many in the paddock feel he is a great driver) a disservice by judging his abilities through hate alone.

i.e, I'm English, it'd be like me saying "Diego Maradonna was a crap footballer" just because I hate him for his hand-of-god goal in 1986. Its just not fair, yes he was wrong to do it, and yes I dislike him greatly for it, but as his other goal in that same game proved he is one of the all time greats, and dirty rotten cheat or not, you can't deny that he had sme awesome talent.

The (at the time) youngest ever (and back-to-back) world champion MUST have more than simply a superior car. And your argument hold less water because you often use Hamilton's performance against Alonso at Mclaren as a measure of how good Hamilton is. But now your effectively changing your story saying Alonso couldn't beat a rookie...what exactly is that saying about Hamilton's ability - is he now nothing more than your average rookie? Clearly he's not. I'm just saying don't let emotions blind your judgement.
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

User avatar
ISLAMATRON
0
Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Alonso's efforts in Renault's uprise?

Post

Very interesting post Spenceifer, and in many points I would have to agree with you, but being completely honest with myself I would disagree with the idea that I am anti-Alonso.

As time goes by we as fans of the sport end up with different views of things. Some may have thought JV to be an excellent driver early on in his career and then rejudged him to be a bit average after the tail end of it, based off further information. Some may have liked Schumacher and then changed their Idea after he parked it in Rascasse, for me it re-confirmed something I already knew. We may have a certain view of Rubans and then it might change after the Ferrari tell all book he has recently promised comes out(Schumy's car allways seemed more reliable to me). My Views towards Alonso changed last year, but before then I was allways a fan. I thought he was the most complete driver in the field, even if a little mentally unstable. But I still respect him as a driver and would rate him as definatly top 5 and possibly as High as 2nd best.

Alonso's performance at McLaren vs Hamilton(yes a rookie) SHOWED US ALOT OF THINGS. Unfortunatly we are not privy to alot of inside info that could totally clear up the situation, like if there was truely an anti-Alonso bias in the team. I would suggest there was none, well not until he ratted out the team at least. To me, Alonso not being able to convincingly beat a rookie speaks volumes about both of them. It says 1 that Alonso may not have been as good as I/we thought and that 2 Hamilton is much better than your average rookie(Sutil,Nakajima,Speed) or even your above average rookie(Heiiki, Rosberg, Piquet). Which one of us thought Hamilton would do as well as he did in 2007? Especially matching a 2xWDC? I certainly didnt, and I have been a big fan of HAmilton since before 2005 when he destroyed the field winning 15 of 20 in Euro F3, But I had no idea he would match Alonso point for point and win for win.

Just as a comparison DAmon Hill who at the time had not yet won a WDC beat JV(not your average rookie) to the WDC in '96, the only difference between the Alonso/HAmilton is that Hill had already established himself in the Williams team.

No doubt the REnault//Michilen/Alonso package was stronger than the FErrari/bridgetone/schumacher package... but we know why that was, it was the simple superiority of the Michilen tires versus the Bridgestone ones, both of which having totally different characteristics, so yea they would probly make both cars slower if switched, common knowledge.

I dont hate Alonso, its just thats he's been knocked down a peg or so in my book... he's still an excellant driver, possible even top two currently. HE is definatly a good if not great development driver, but he has not yet remade Renault into a top team with a race winning car(those 2 wins were mostly luck). I dont think he will be able to without an outright advantage such as the Michilen tires. HE could allways prove me wrong.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Alonso's efforts in Renault's uprise?

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:
marcush. wrote: ... As for the engineering abilities of drivers ,really I think you don´t need that. ...
I would have objections to that statement. Two of the best ever drivers (Senna, Schumacher) were known to be maniacs about the technical side of their race cars. They spend endless hours with engineers and never stopped thinking about it.

I believe that this is Kimi's Achilles heel. He would be a multiple champ if he was more focussed on the engineering side of the job.

I guess you misunderstood my comment a bit.
You sure néed to be interested and involved and you need to know whats going on as a driver .
But surely you need not ballast yourself with tyre springrates and slipangles at this or that vertical load.
You need not know how to translate an aeromap into suspension settings ,this is basically what I wanted to say .For sure a good diver knows the basics very well and instantly knows if the engineer is telling stories or knows his trade.
Drivers job is to give feedback to his crew so they can fiddle the car towards his likings AND remain within the operating window of the machine.
I always hate to begin a weekend with a driver coming into the pits demanding a certain setup change .
I´m pretty sure no Senna and no Schuhmacher was an engineering driver .They gave
feedback worth the name and gave hints and advise what the car lacked and where to help the boffins to isolate and quantify and erase the weaknesses according to importance.
At the end both where capable to drive around problems and still be fast,whereas lesser mortals just go slower or crash.