Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[Capharol]

and now you're claiming to know ALL drivers contracts .... wow

you're drifting into discussing me instead of F1, so i'll leave you to think what you like. The day we hear Charles has No1 in his contract you can come back and

i am drifting into it because you claim it is not in his contract, so you must know Bottas his contract, later you claim it isn't in any contract, which implecates you know all the contracts of all drivers
I never claimed it is anchored in their contracts but it can be part of a deal made between two parties (spoken about it/non written directive) and as already stated, what they say to the outside isn't always the same with how it is within a team .....

and i you follow F1 closely (like you do) you know exactly how it works within a top team, there is always a #1 driver (lets say Hamilton) and a #2 driver (Bottas in this case) even when they say to us or the media, "we are equal partners" this might be for the first 4-5 races but if its clear that the designated #1 driver (Hamilton) is better as his teammate they choose to give the benefit to this driver (teamorders)

[PlatinumZealot]

oh you know the details of his contract ... interesting

it is isn't it . Tho it's not hard tbh, as Lewis has said it's not in his, which it would have to be. Obviously they all have "obey instructions from the team" in their contracts, but nobody since Schumi has had No1 in theirs, or no2 as that's redundant. And the reason is it means a low quality second driver like Irvine and they lose motivation too. Plus most top drivers are too proud to have that kind of thing to prop them up

It widely known that Vettel had No.1 in contracts at some point and he has never denied it. I believe at Ferrari he has the clause in there but just didn't beat LeClerc by enough points to activate it.

[izzy]

it is isn't it . Tho it's not hard tbh, as Lewis has said it's not in his, which it would have to be. Obviously they all have "obey instructions from the team" in their contracts, but nobody since Schumi has had No1 in theirs, or no2 as that's redundant. And the reason is it means a low quality second driver like Irvine and they lose motivation too. Plus most top drivers are too proud to have that kind of thing to prop them up

It widely known that Vettel had No.1 in contracts at some point and he has never denied it. I believe at Ferrari he has the clause in there but just didn't beat LeClerc by enough points to activate it.

oh yes i see it says that in the Express, fair enough, but it obviously doesn't count for much if it's conditional, i mean then it doesn't mean anything really, as @Capharol says once one of them gets away in the points they're de facto No1 anyway. And if he had anything at Red Bull it didn't save him in 2014 did it. So from the point of view of Danny Ric he can go to Ferrari and try to win like Charles has, even if for some reason they gave young Charles the same clause

[Capharol]

it is isn't it . Tho it's not hard tbh, as Lewis has said it's not in his, which it would have to be. Obviously they all have "obey instructions from the team" in their contracts, but nobody since Schumi has had No1 in theirs, or no2 as that's redundant. And the reason is it means a low quality second driver like Irvine and they lose motivation too. Plus most top drivers are too proud to have that kind of thing to prop them up

It widely known that Vettel had No.1 in contracts at some point and he has never denied it. I believe at Ferrari he has the clause in there but just didn't beat LeClerc by enough points to activate it.

oh yes i see it says that in the Express, fair enough, but it obviously doesn't count for much if it's conditional, i mean then it doesn't mean anything really, as @Capharol says once one of them gets away in the points they're de facto No1 anyway. And if he had anything at Red Bull it didn't save him in 2014 did it. So from the point of view of Danny Ric he can go to Ferrari and try to win like Charles has, even if for some reason they gave young Charles the same clause

we don't know do we, like we don't know if Bottas has a #2 in his Contract or Albon or whom ever....
and as i said you need a #1 & #2 driver (top team) but this #2 driver has to be so good it can backs or even when neccassarly take over from #1
and as Vettel was starting (figurly) as a #1 driver (which he has been at Ferrari) Leclerc was to be a very good back up... but now Leclerc shows his (baby)teeths and is claiming the spot from Vettel (whom will not give in that easily)

conclusion: there is a #1 & #2 driver otherwise the topteams wouldn't give teamorders (like Mercs or even Ferrari this year) to stay behind their desiganted #1 driver

[izzy]

we don't know do we, like we don't know if Bottas has a #2 in his Contract or Albon or whom ever....
and as i said you need a #1 & #2 driver (top team) but this #2 driver has to be so good it can backs or even when neccassarly take over from #1
and as Vettel was starting (figurly) as a #1 driver (which he has been at Ferrari) Leclerc was to be a very good back up... but now Leclerc shows his (baby)teeths and is claiming the spot from Vettel (whom will not give in that easily)

conclusion: there is a #1 & #2 driver otherwise the topteams wouldn't give teamorders (like Mercs or even Ferrari this year) to stay behind their desiganted #1 driver

we know Valtteri was 2-2 with Lewis at the start of the year and has more poles, and we know Charles could sail in and show Seb's sop No1 clause isn't like Michael's and doesn't mean anything, and therefore (where we started this) Ric could join Ferrari knowing he has his chance. Yes he'd have to be amazing, but it's his mind we're talking about. So you just have to accept we agree

[Phil]

conclusion: there is a #1 & #2 driver otherwise the topteams wouldn't give teamorders (like Mercs or even Ferrari this year) to stay behind their desiganted #1 driver

No there isnt. Or how do you explain Bottas winning anything? Or Hamilton giving a place back in Hungary?

[selvam_e2002]

I Think in Ferrari the situation is different compared to Merc. They bring Lec as alpha to clash with Vettel else why they need to bring Lec? They can leave him there for another 2 or 3 year like Russel( he is better performed compared to Lec in other junior series) and work with Kimi till 2020 then replace with Lecrec. In that time i.e 2021 Vettel definitely move out from ferrari. No drama like 2019 in ferrari.

All the fault with Ferrari. What they achieved bringing Lec in Ferrari 2019? Did Vettel up his game? Big No. Did Lec matured enough to handle Vettel? Big NO. Did Ferrari at least drag the WCC and WDC(WCC very much they may challenged in second half) till end of last race? NO. They screwed their WCC and WDC with these two drivers on its own.

If Kimi with Ferrari in 2019, atleast they challenged for WCC with more points. Wrong time to bring Lecrec in to Ferrari.

From outside of view, it seems very BIG politics going within the team and Vettel is not mature enough to handle it. Hence he is showing his frustration on Track.

Vettel never been into this situation so, this is his first experience. IMO he is learning it...

As this is 100% Ferrari's fault, they have to live with it. NO excuses. They have to forgot 2020 WDC and WCC with this line up.

Say for example, if you bring Hulk or Bottos or even Ric will they support 23 year old Lec... NO way. It is like Vettel with Webbter situation at RB 2010.

I don't believe Ferrari can get WDC WCC till 2024. No chance with Lecrec as Alpha...

[izzy]

I Think in Ferrari the situation is different compared to Merc. They bring Lec as alpha to clash with Vettel else why they need to bring Lec? They can leave him there for another 2 or 3 year like Russel( he is better performed compared to Lec in other junior series) and work with Kimi till 2020 then replace with Lecrec. In that time i.e 2021 Vettel definitely move out from ferrari. No drama like 2019 in ferrari.

All the fault with Ferrari. What they achieved bringing Lec in Ferrari 2019? Did Vettel up his game? Big No. Did Lec matured enough to handle Vettel? Big NO. Did Ferrari at least drag the WCC and WDC(WCC very much they may challenged in second half) till end of last race? NO. They screwed their WCC and WDC with these two drivers on its own.

If Kimi with Ferrari in 2019, atleast they challenged for WCC with more points. Wrong time to bring Lecrec in to Ferrari.

From outside of view, it seems very BIG politics going within the team and Vettel is not mature enough to handle it. Hence he is showing his frustration on Track.

Vettel never been into this situation so, this is his first experience. IMO he is learning it...

As this is 100% Ferrari's fault, they have to live with it. NO excuses. They have to forgot 2020 WDC and WCC with this line up.

Say for example, if you bring Hulk or Bottos or even Ric will they support 23 year old Lec... NO way. It is like Vettel with Webbter situation at RB 2010.

I don't believe Ferrari can get WDC WCC till 2024. No chance with Lecrec as Alpha...

Yes and it's so interesting and F1, that in a way it goes back to the culture of each team, nationalism, ego, appointing an Italian brand manager as TP and tossing out maybe the equal best driver. So now they're stuck as you say.

But if anyone can make it work now i think it's Mattia. Anyway i do bet he's keeping an eye on Danny

[Capharol]

we don't know do we, like we don't know if Bottas has a #2 in his Contract or Albon or whom ever....
and as i said you need a #1 & #2 driver (top team) but this #2 driver has to be so good it can backs or even when neccassarly take over from #1
and as Vettel was starting (figurly) as a #1 driver (which he has been at Ferrari) Leclerc was to be a very good back up... but now Leclerc shows his (baby)teeths and is claiming the spot from Vettel (whom will not give in that easily)

conclusion: there is a #1 & #2 driver otherwise the topteams wouldn't give teamorders (like Mercs or even Ferrari this year) to stay behind their desiganted #1 driver

we know Valtteri was 2-2 with Lewis at the start of the year and has more poles, and we know Charles could sail in and show Seb's sop No1 clause isn't like Michael's and doesn't mean anything, and therefore (where we started this) Ric could join Ferrari knowing he has his chance. Yes he'd have to be amazing, but it's his mind we're talking about. So you just have to accept we agree

[raymondu999]

Tbh. Just looking at it logically;

Unless Merc have stated explicitly during negotiations to Bottas that he will be a number 2, he would not have had it implied, imo. Bottas came to Merc in 2017, replacing the guy who retired after (results-wise) was the team #1 in 2016. Implying therefore Lewis was not a contract-#1 like Alonso with Massa or Schumacher with Barichello.

In Bottas’s shoes - 2016, you’ve done well against your past teammates the past few years, there are factions who rate you highly in the paddock. You would believe you are WDC material, and will win some day. And looking at Merc - they let drivers race without a clear #1 in 2016. If I were in Bottas’s shoes - I would think Merc lets its drivers race until such a point only 1 driver is in contention. He would, coming in as a young “hot shot” - have rhe confidence that he can mix with - and eventually beat, of course - Hamilton.

So no, unless they said in black and white - you are here to support Lewis - I do not believe he would have come in “knowing” he was Barichello 3.0.

And on that final point - I don’t think they did. Bottas started 2019 guns blazing - didn’t he even lead the standings in the first 4 rounds? He attacked those races with an aim to beat Lewis and force the team to have to favor him for the season. And he did it with the hoohah and fanfare of “Bottas 2.0” Not with the aim to eventually relinquish the title lead to his teammate

[nevill3]

The teams main concern has always been the constructors championship. The whole number 1 number 2 driver is a media invention to describe the teams desire to win the drivers championship too if possible. The teams will surely know which driver has the edge from all their data, but at the start of a new season all drivers are equal and until such times as a driver edges far enough ahead of his teammate (unless you drive for Ferrari in 2019) they are generally treated equally. Hamilton does not need a number one status because he earns it each year as the season progresses. Charles also managed to overturn the declared favoured status of Sebastian by earning it. Charles was an unknown quantity as far as Ferrari were concerned and so declared that they would favour their perceived better driver at first.

Danny Ric should hold out at Renault, with the rules changes coming, Renault have a slightly better chance than say Williams or other non works teams of acing it from the start and sneaking a championship. His new eager team mate will push him just like Sebastian did at RB.

[raymondu999]

The teams main concern has always been the constructors championship. The whole number 1 number 2 driver is a media invention to describe the teams desire to win the drivers championship too if possible.

With all due respect, I don't think so. I don't mean to say EVERY team has a #1 and #2. But I do believe there are teams with a #1 and a #2. For example, going into 2020, would Toto not go into the year planning for Bottas to back Lewis up? Did Ferrari not go into 2017-18 planning for Kimi to back Vettel up? Did Ferrari not plan to go into 2000-2004 with Rubens to back Michael up?

To a point; the WCC is more important than the WDC, for teams. I do not disagree. But to another extent - there are some teams - those that perhaps are a bit more "Latin" in their approach, who identify more with words such as "passion" and "emotion" than "clinical" or "professional" - would embrace more the connection that fans get from a WDC, rather than a WCC.

The teams will surely know which driver has the edge from all their data, but at the start of a new season all drivers are equal and until such times as a driver edges far enough ahead of his teammate (unless you drive for Ferrari in 2019) they are generally treated equally.

Agree.

Hamilton does not need a number one status because he earns it each year as the season progresses.

Barring a few of his seasons so far in F1 - I would agree.

Charles also managed to overturn the declared favoured status of Sebastian by earning it. Charles was an unknown quantity as far as Ferrari were concerned and so declared that they would favour their perceived better driver at first.

Agree. And I think it was logical for Ferrari to do so.

Danny Ric should hold out at Renault, with the rules changes coming, Renault have a slightly better chance than say Williams or other non works teams of acing it from the start and sneaking a championship. His new eager team mate will push him just like Sebastian did at RB.

Tbh; I think there will be a reshuffle either in 2021 (for those gambling on the new pecking order) - and a reshuffle in 2022 (for those who are aspiring to reshuffle themselves into a position of power in the new pecking order.

[Manoah2u]

As for the Bottas didn't expect or sees himself as a NR2,
well, not really true to be honest.

Mercedes very much made it clear that they did not want another Ham-Ros clash situation, which is one of the reasons it's believed they passed on Alonso.
Bottas thus very much came in knowing 'dont stir things up'. Which can only be read as the following: keep yourself on a leash.
In other words, Lewis is the Champ.
Now, Bottas is a good above average driver. Except for i think Silverstone this year, i haven't seen much spectacular from him. He has had strong performances,
but in general he is rather 'meh'. imho.

Now as for Mercedes being open for him getting a WDC.
Yes and no. The thing is, they already had a (GERMAN) win a title instead of Lewis. And if i'm honest, i maintain that Rosberg got hugely favoured, in ways for example
Bottas never has recieved. So that said, they as a team 'don't have to prove' that they are only WDC because of Hamilton.
Except the problem is, Hamilton leads by such margin, that i rather doubt how big Mercedes keeps their chances on a WDC with Bottas.

The thing is, it's not just about the WCC. Sure it's the main prize for the team itself, but the thing is, the WDC is the créme de la créme and is what is being spotted more.
Hamilton is the WDC. What car? A Merc, great! Even if Mercedes would come up 2nd in the WCC, nobody would bat an eye because it doesn't really 'sink'.
Ferrari or RedBull might have snatched WCC, but almost everybody will remember the result of such season as following:

Lewis is WDC, the champion, in a Merc. Vettel, with a Ferrari, was BEATEN by Lewis in a Merc!
Merc beats Ferrari. That is what is remembered, even if the combination of Vettel and Leclerc managed more points than Mercedes and Ferrari is WCC.

It's an example, but it's an important example. Yes, the WCC is important, but don't underestimate the team's desire to have their driver be WDC.

And we're now heading for another landmark. Hamilton can earn as much F1 titles as Schumacher, which is quite the story.
And he can do that in a Mercedes. Schumacher is remembered Ferrari, Hamilton Mercedes.
So if Hamilton achieves that success, then that will be remembered pretty strong.

That means, it's in Mercedes' own interest to see Hamilton snatch that 7th WDC title, with Mercedes.
It will mean much, much more than Bottas getting his 1st WDC title in a dominant car, and probably will be forgettable.

That means, that Mercedes for 2020, possibly even their last season with Hamilton (if he DOES bail to Ferrari, make use of him while you can, right!),
they are going to put ALL their effort in the guy who got them 5(!!!!) WDC and WCC titles vs this mediocre Bottas who has zero, if you're very harsh.
After all, what has Bottas achieved the past seasons with Mercedes which Rosberg, Ocon, Perez, Ricciardo also couldn't have done?

SO, i have absolutely no doubt, that for 2020, there will be NO FOCUS for Mercedes on getting Bottas a WDC title, but to get Hamilton that title.
It might mean the WCC title could be decided in the final race results in worst conditions, but i'm sure that's a sacrifice they're willing to make.

That means that even if Bottas will be in front of Lewis, they'll either ask him to let Hamilton pass, and poltiically find some way like making sure Bottas
needs to save some fuel or tires and Lewis needs to then overtake him so he doesn't get in his dirty air and overheat, or simply think they see a potential
tire leak and have him change tires.

there is no way they'll let Hamilton MISS on this LEGENDARY 7th title, which is only in Mercedes own BEST INTEREST,
by being nice and friendly to poor ol' panzy nr2 driver Bottas.

So be prepared for a whole lot of sore Bottas in 2020.

[Capharol]

As for the Bottas didn't expect or sees himself as a NR2,
well, not really true to be honest.

Mercedes very much made it clear that they did not want another Ham-Ros clash situation, which is one of the reasons it's believed they passed on Alonso.
Bottas thus very much came in knowing 'dont stir things up'. Which can only be read as the following: keep yourself on a leash.
In other words, Lewis is the Champ.
Now, Bottas is a good above average driver. Except for i think Silverstone this year, i haven't seen much spectacular from him. He has had strong performances,
but in general he is rather 'meh'. imho.

Now as for Mercedes being open for him getting a WDC.
Yes and no. The thing is, they already had a (GERMAN) win a title instead of Lewis. And if i'm honest, i maintain that Rosberg got hugely favoured, in ways for example
Bottas never has recieved. So that said, they as a team 'don't have to prove' that they are only WDC because of Hamilton.
Except the problem is, Hamilton leads by such margin, that i rather doubt how big Mercedes keeps their chances on a WDC with Bottas.

The thing is, it's not just about the WCC. Sure it's the main prize for the team itself, but the thing is, the WDC is the créme de la créme and is what is being spotted more.
Hamilton is the WDC. What car? A Merc, great! Even if Mercedes would come up 2nd in the WCC, nobody would bat an eye because it doesn't really 'sink'.
Ferrari or RedBull might have snatched WCC, but almost everybody will remember the result of such season as following:

Lewis is WDC, the champion, in a Merc. Vettel, with a Ferrari, was BEATEN by Lewis in a Merc!
Merc beats Ferrari. That is what is remembered, even if the combination of Vettel and Leclerc managed more points than Mercedes and Ferrari is WCC.

It's an example, but it's an important example. Yes, the WCC is important, but don't underestimate the team's desire to have their driver be WDC.

And we're now heading for another landmark. Hamilton can earn as much F1 titles as Schumacher, which is quite the story.
And he can do that in a Mercedes. Schumacher is remembered Ferrari, Hamilton Mercedes.
So if Hamilton achieves that success, then that will be remembered pretty strong.

That means, it's in Mercedes' own interest to see Hamilton snatch that 7th WDC title, with Mercedes.
It will mean much, much more than Bottas getting his 1st WDC title in a dominant car, and probably will be forgettable.

That means, that Mercedes for 2020, possibly even their last season with Hamilton (if he DOES bail to Ferrari, make use of him while you can, right!),
they are going to put ALL their effort in the guy who got them 5(!!!!) WDC and WCC titles vs this mediocre Bottas who has zero, if you're very harsh.
After all, what has Bottas achieved the past seasons with Mercedes which Rosberg, Ocon, Perez, Ricciardo also couldn't have done?

SO, i have absolutely no doubt, that for 2020, there will be NO FOCUS for Mercedes on getting Bottas a WDC title, but to get Hamilton that title.
It might mean the WCC title could be decided in the final race results in worst conditions, but i'm sure that's a sacrifice they're willing to make.

That means that even if Bottas will be in front of Lewis, they'll either ask him to let Hamilton pass, and poltiically find some way like making sure Bottas
needs to save some fuel or tires and Lewis needs to then overtake him so he doesn't get in his dirty air and overheat, or simply think they see a potential
tire leak and have him change tires.

there is no way they'll let Hamilton MISS on this LEGENDARY 7th title, which is only in Mercedes own BEST INTEREST,
by being nice and friendly to poor ol' panzy nr2 driver Bottas.

So be prepared for a whole lot of sore Bottas in 2020.

I agree to this post 100%

[Phil]

there is no way they'll let Hamilton MISS on this LEGENDARY 7th title, which is only in Mercedes own BEST INTEREST,
by being nice and friendly to poor ol' panzy nr2 driver Bottas.

If Bottas is driving and performing better, of course they will. What do you expect them to do? Sabotage his car? Beg him to drive slower?

What you are suggesting is not what Mercedes stands for. The amount of criticism they’d get, would be beyond the benefit of beating a drivers record.