Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
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Re: Mercedes W11

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aral wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 14:06
Apart from the visual proof, it is being reported on nearly every F1 site. And other teams have stated that it will be protested if brought to Melbourne or any other race. It is clearly in contravention of the rules regarding to fixed suspension units and also that suspension cannot be adjusted by the driver.
Technically the driver adjusts front toe when he steers left or right. Mercedes will argue that this too is steering.
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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes W11

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I've seen reports that teams think it is legal... who knows. Merc ahead of the game once again though. Other teams will spend an age figuring out if it's legal or illegal rather than focusing on their own car.
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JordanMugen
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Re: Mercedes W11

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aral wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 14:06
It is clearly in contravention of the rules regarding to fixed suspension units and also that suspension cannot be adjusted by the driver.
Interesting opinion!
10.2 Suspension geometry :
10.2.1 With the steering wheel fixed, the position of each wheel centre and the orientation of its
rotation axis must be completely and uniquely defined by a function of its principally
vertical suspension travel, save only for the effects of reasonable compliance which does
not intentionally provide further degrees of freedom.
10.2.2 Any powered device which is capable of altering the configuration or affecting the
performance of any part of any suspension system is forbidden.
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion

10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.
10.4.2 Power assisted steering systems may not be electronically controlled or electrically powered.
No such system may carry out any function other than reduce the physical effort required to
steer the car.
10.4.3 No part of the steering wheel or column, nor any part fitted to them, may be closer to the
driver than a plane formed by the entire rear edge of the steering wheel rim. All parts fixed to
the steering wheel must be fitted in such a way as to minimise the risk of injury in the event of
a driver’s head making contact with any part of the wheel assembly.
10.4.4 The steering wheel, steering column and steering rack assembly must pass an impact test,
details of the test procedure may be found in Article 16.5
https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

IMO:
The suspension does not change when the steering is fixed - tick.
The steering adjusts toe on no more than two wheels - tick.
No part of the steering system is closer to the driver than the rear edge of the steering wheel - tick.

Complies with the letter of the rules, since 10.4.1 specifically allows the steering system to adjust the toe of two wheels (therefore 10.2.3 does not apply IMO), however it could be banned as a moveable aerodynamic device under 3.8:
3.8 Aerodynamic influence
With the exception of the parts described in Articles 11.4, 11.5 and 11.6, and the rear view
mirrors described in Article 14.3, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic
performance :
a) Must comply with the rules relating to bodywork.
b) Must be rigidly secured to the entirely sprung part of the car (rigidly secured means not
having any degree of freedom).
With the exception of the driver adjustable bodywork described in Article 3.6.8 (in addition to
minimal parts solely associated with its actuation) and the parts described in Articles 11.4, 11.5
and 11.6, any specific part of the car influencing its aerodynamic performance must remain
immobile in relation to the sprung part of the car.
Any device or construction that is designed to bridge the gap between the sprung part of the
car and the ground is prohibited under all circumstances.
No part having an aerodynamic influence and no part of the bodywork, with the exception of
the parts referred to in Articles 3.7.10, 3.7.11 and 3.7.12, may under any circumstances be
located below the reference plane.
With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.6.8, any car
system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the
aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.
Note 3.6.8 is Drag Reduction System.
Last edited by JordanMugen on 20 Feb 2020, 14:28, edited 4 times in total.

drunkf1fan
drunkf1fan
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015, 03:34

Re: Mercedes W11

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Sky Italia are apparently reporting FIA are pretty much saying it's legal but they aren't certain on safety yet. For me that's probably why they are using it quite early. They need to put laps on it and prove to the FIA it's safe to use it in Aus.

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Mercedes W11

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Based on bulkhead packaging, I see this being hard to copy without a chassis redesign.
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11

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If it's illegal then all steering is illegal. It uses the steering wheel and rack to change toe angle. Which is exactly what steering is - changing toe.
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6 of 12
6 of 12
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Joined: 11 Jan 2014, 16:02

Re: Mercedes W11

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So we are agreed that it cannot simply be changing track width because that would be illegal, yes?
No, Kimi, no. You will not have the drink.

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JordanMugen
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Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Mercedes W11

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 14:14
If it's illegal then all steering is illegal. It uses the steering wheel and rack to change toe angle. Which is exactly what steering is - changing toe.
That's correct!

FIA foolishly forgot to put a rule that the steering wheel can only adjust toe when moved radially. I suppose they did not anticipate the longitudinal movement of the steering wheel!
6 of 12 wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 14:14
So we are agreed that it cannot simply be changing track width because that would be illegal, yes?
I think so. That would be far more complex, with all the suspension pickup points being on rockers or some such.
Last edited by JordanMugen on 20 Feb 2020, 14:16, edited 1 time in total.

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MtthsMlw
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Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes W11

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10.4.4 The steering wheel, steering column and steering rack assembly must pass an impact test, details of the test procedure may be found in Article 16.5.

I mean if it did..

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El Scorchio
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Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: Mercedes W11

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Very smart of them to reveal this during testing, so there's time to alter if it's deemed not legal.
Also a great tactic to put everyone else on the back foot, and what a fantastic bit of innovation. A really lateral thinking way of combating their rivals maybe higher straight line speed?
I'd be really interested to see what sort of laptime benefit this gives when used at full speed in a live situation. They obviously must think it's significant.

Could be quite fun watching all the developments with this and if/when there's a protest, and possibly a lot of cries of 'cheats!' Isn't this the kind of great stuff we all love about F1?!

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dren
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 14:14

Re: Mercedes W11

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turbof1 wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 13:52
dren wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 13:47
Anyone have a rough estimate of how much this would gain in speed with just the reduction in drag from the toe change?

Also, wouldn't it also raise the front of the car based on the offset of the pushrods? Pulling the toe back should increase spring pressure on both push rods.
Since the diagonal of the tyres is longer than its height, this would indeed raise the front a little bit.

This will also lift the front wing, splitter and floor slightly, which could result in a bit drag reduction, next to the reduced contact patch already leading to reduced friction.

However, that in turn can be classified as movable aerodynamics.
That's where I think they might have issues. Although, they are allowed the lowering of the front wing when turning into a corner, so this in-out movement of the steering wheel could be considered 'steering'. The rules don't say anything about what axis denotes steering.

I do think the aero benefit is the reason more than the toe change even though they would argue they are doing it to change the toe.
Honda!

djones
djones
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Re: Mercedes W11

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aral wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 14:06
Apart from the visual proof, it is being reported on nearly every F1 site. And other teams have stated that it will be protested if brought to Melbourne or any other race. It is clearly in contravention of the rules regarding to fixed suspension units and also that suspension cannot be adjusted by the driver.
Mercedes have won the last 6 championships by knowing what they are doing and probaly have a team or at least person whos sole job it is to read and follow the rules. I'm mildly confident they have only done this if they think they will get away with it.

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One and Only
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Re: Mercedes W11

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f1rules wrote:
20 Feb 2020, 13:50
Toe change is not subtle. Brilliant, but it could easily be outlawed IMHO.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

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214270
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Joined: 27 Apr 2019, 18:49

Re: Mercedes W11

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I suspect this’ll go like the Merc rear rims controversy from a few years back. Merc successfully argued its purpose was for one thing and every other benefit was incidental.
Merc will argue a steering update; the aero benefits are secondary.

I loooove this kind of out-of-the-box thinking
Last edited by 214270 on 20 Feb 2020, 14:25, edited 1 time in total.
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GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
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Re: Mercedes W11

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I’ll be disappointed if we don’t get to see this in at least one race weekend, just to witness it in action in a proper race setting just for the tech/science side of F1.