Mercedes W11

[i70q7m7ghw]

Here's a decent view of the steering arm hidden below the wishbone, it's quite a unique location compared to other teams, I wonder if this will make DAS all the more harder to copy:

[OO7]

I'm definitely not an expert, but is it possible for it to be a passive system? The tires want to stay in a straight line, because it has less resistance. So when entering the straight, the toe becomes 0 degrees and the steering wheel is pushed back. When approaching the corner the steering column moves back to its original place because of the forces due to braking.

I sounds a bit farfetched and this would also mean that the steering column is moving al the time. Even mid corners and I think that would mean that the are not able to fully control it and therefore control their balance.

Please don't judge me on this idea. I'm just a Formula 1 fan trying to maybe add some thoughts.

That would indeed be theoritically possible, as are all passive system really, but difficult to have it work at the appropiate time.

In reality I don't think it is feasible. They couldn't get a passive DRS working properly or make it worth it, and this sounds massively more complex to pull off.

For it to be passive, and pass in this forum, it'd have to somehow include Hg.

[Xwang]

I don't know if other teams can easily implement this system in their cars because it seems to me that the steering arms of the W11 are angled towards the front of the car (their position of attachment to the wheel is in a more advanced position than their connected end to the steering box). In this case, when the steering rack is moved forward, the steering arms become more perpendicular to the frame and the convergence is opened as necessary for traveling the curves.
If, on the other hand, the attachment point of the steering arms is more advanced, the convergence will be closed by moving the steering forward.
Finally, if the arm were about perpendicular to the chassis, as it seems to be on many cars, the steering box would have to be moved a lot to have some appreciable convergence variation.
Do you agree?

[dren]

It's just a matter of steering linkage actuation in the chassis. The linkage location at the hub has nothing to do with if teams can copy the system or not. Teams are always moving steering linkage locations around year to year, likely for aero reasons. All this Mercedes system is doing is steering both wheels in opposite directions by axial movement of the steering wheel.

[One and Only]

I can't understand all this fuss about DAS legality...

It's pretty OBVIOUS Mercedes that has just spent a bunch of months, human resources and millions of dollars developing, building and testing a system that's completely ILLEGAL. Maybe for fun, maybe because they are just ignorant. After all, what do they know about building an F1 car? /s

The point is:

I can assure you that there will be people who will put a legit argument why this is not legal and vice versa.

Is it illegal because the steering isn't allowed to change the toe angle? Maybe, maybe not...
Is it illegal beacue it can be argued to be a moveable aerodynamic device? Maybe, maybe not...
Is it illegal because it will also effect the ride hight? Maybe maybe not...

There are a lot of arguments to be made for and againt ist. Just because Mercedes thinks it's legal and spent a lot of money on it doesn't mean it actually is.
Even Mercedes saying they have 'cleared' it with the FIA doesn't mean anything. What they have most likely done is asked the FIA during the summer wether their idea is legal and the FIA has given an opinion about it.
An idea and a final implementation are two very different things.
An opinion and a verdict are two very different things.

Also, afaik the FIA can give opinions, write the rules and technical derectives, but only the stewards at a race can declare the legality of something.

Safety grounds?
What if system fails during the race? Will it be fail-safe? Even if it is deemed legal if it fails during the race rivals could protest result if car is not safe to drive with DAS system failure.
Legal or not, this system took pre-season testing to a whole new level of interesting

[djones]

There is the fancy rear suspension and now this.

I wonder what the other “things not seen before” are.

[PhillipM]

If it's unpowered, I'd say it'd be difficult for it to be aero because the loads involved would make it very tricky and tiring for the driver - so I'd say purely for kinematics, less toe out for tyre life and lower drag on the straights, more toe out for the corners.

However, having said that, it seems to move smoothly and similar speeds every time, so I suspect it could be powered using the power-steering circuit, as that could still be argued to fall under the same rules as the steering wheel. If that's the case then with the offset on the POU upright, if that offset was also forwards of the steering axis as well as inboard, the front of the car would lift on the straight for less drag, and lower during braking and in the corners.
That would be as well as the previously mention geometery benefits.

My problem there is it would definately then be in a grey area regarding movable aerodynamics, but then you can argue that falls under the same rules as the PoU offset does and so long as the total change isn't more than the rule, you should be okay...

[i70q7m7ghw]

Safety grounds?
What if system fails during the race? Will it be fail-safe? Even if it is deemed legal if it fails during the race rivals could protest result if car is not safe to drive with DAS system failure.
Legal or not, this system took pre-season testing to a whole new level of interesting

What if steering fails in the race? Will it be fail-safe? Easy solution, ban steering.

What if brakes fail in the race? Will they be fail-safe? Easy solution, ban brakes.

What if tyres fail in the race? Will they be fail-safe? Easy solution, ban tyres.

[Jolle]

I can't understand all this fuss about DAS legality...

It's pretty OBVIOUS Mercedes that has just spent a bunch of months, human resources and millions of dollars developing, building and testing a system that's completely ILLEGAL. Maybe for fun, maybe because they are just ignorant. After all, what do they know about building an F1 car? /s

The point is:

I can assure you that there will be people who will put a legit argument why this is not legal and vice versa.

Is it illegal because the steering isn't allowed to change the toe angle? Maybe, maybe not...
Is it illegal beacue it can be argued to be a moveable aerodynamic device? Maybe, maybe not...
Is it illegal because it will also effect the ride hight? Maybe maybe not...

There are a lot of arguments to be made for and againt ist. Just because Mercedes thinks it's legal and spent a lot of money on it doesn't mean it actually is.
Even Mercedes saying they have 'cleared' it with the FIA doesn't mean anything. What they have most likely done is asked the FIA during the summer wether their idea is legal and the FIA has given an opinion about it.
An idea and a final implementation are two very different things.
An opinion and a verdict are two very different things.

Also, afaik the FIA can give opinions, write the rules and technical derectives, but only the stewards at a race can declare the legality of something.

Safety grounds?
What if system fails during the race? Will it be fail-safe? Even if it is deemed legal if it fails during the race rivals could protest result if car is not safe to drive with DAS system failure.
Legal or not, this system took pre-season testing to a whole new level of interesting

If the system fails you have either a normal can on the straights or heavy understeering can in the corners. Nothing unsafe.

[Jolle]

Very cool new system. But, let’s have a moment of silence for RedBull who thought to be clever by moving the steering rack so far back that it’s harder to copy such an innovation

[One and Only]

Safety grounds?
What if system fails during the race? Will it be fail-safe? Even if it is deemed legal if it fails during the race rivals could protest result if car is not safe to drive with DAS system failure.
Legal or not, this system took pre-season testing to a whole new level of interesting

What if steering fails in the race? Will it be fail-safe? Easy solution, ban steering.

What if brakes fail in the race? Will they be fail-safe? Easy solution, ban brakes.

What if tyres fail in the race? Will they be fail-safe? Easy solution, ban tyres.

You missed my point by huge margin. I was completing list in which ways it can be protested. I have no idea is it legal or not, or will it be protested in any way or not. Most rival teams at this point have no clear idea if it is legal or not either.
All system fails you listed will result in car exclusion from the race, but that's not the point anyway.

[supermarine]

Interesting old paper (1978!) on the effect of toe, or 'slip angle' on rolling resistance.


https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/910 ... &ZyEntry=4

So there is potentially quite a bit of gain for rolling resistance with no toe out. Although I imagine rolling resistance is very small compared to aero drag for an f1 car on the straight.

I suspect this whole Merc steering trick may be more about tyre management than top speed though.

[f1rules]

merc is just so on top of things insane how dominant they have been and how they continue to push

[Mandrake]

Interesting old paper (1978!) on the effect of toe, or 'slip angle' on rolling resistance.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/910 ... &ZyEntry=4

So there is potentially quite a bit of gain for rolling resistance with no toe out. Although I imagine rolling resistance is very small compared to aero drag for an f1 car on the straight.

I suspect this whole Merc steering trick may be more about tyre management than top speed though.

Also since a road car runs a lot less negative camber, the contact patch of a street tire should be much bigger, thus generating more rolling resistance, correct?

In an F1 car with the negative camber I think the result should be less dramatic, but probable worth it for Mercedes

[wunderkind]

Mercedes Benz toyed with a similar system (but camber only) back in the late 1990's and early 2000's with its F400 Carving concept car. I'm not sure if experience and knowledge of the system were transferred to the F1 team. But here it is:

https://media.daimler.com/marsMediaSite ... toRelation

Interesting how the engineers have come up with this. I think Mercedes may get away with it if the FIA is satisfied that the system does not enhance the car's aerodynamic performance (i.e. ride height stability).