Mercedes W11

[JordanMugen]

Interesting old paper (1978!)

Great find!

However most street car radials at the time were very narrow, so would the extreme width of F1 fronts (305mm) make a difference to the findings?

I note the test is based on a 1971 Chevrolet Vega which uses a A78-13 "tire", equivalent to a 175/80% R13 metric radial tyre.

Curiously the test is by the EPA who are not usually the motor enthusiasts friend, and is very much orientated around maximising fuel economy. [Not those silly motor enthusiasts who fit wider tyres on their vehicles for more grip!]

[Just_a_fan]

yeah, this is clearly longitudinal movement, the engineer in me is dying everytime i've read lateral...
And for what is worth, the "conventional" motion of a steering wheel is a rotation, not a radial movement

(sorry for being pedantic )

You're not being pedantic. You're using the correct terms and that's not pedantry.

My post is pedantic, however.

[sucof]

I think an interesting argument against the legality of this system would be that this is not steering.
The argument for the legality was that this is basically steering, so it belongs to the steering part of the regulations.
However: if the driver pulls or pushes the steering wheel, the car does not change direction, meaning, that this is not steering.

[JordanMugen]

However: if the driver pulls or pushes the steering wheel, the car does not change direction, meaning, that this is not steering.

The question is: is steering defined as making the car change direction?

As far as I can see steering is only defined as changing the [alignment] of no more than two wheels.

Under Article 1: Defintion, neither steering wheel nor steering are defined. Instead land vehicle is defined with this statement...

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS
1.1 Formula One Car :
An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.
1.2 Automobile :
A land vehicle running on at least four non‐aligned complete wheels, of which at least two are
used for steering and at least two for propulsion.
1.3 Land vehicle :
A locomotive device propelled by its own means, moving by constantly taking real support on
the earth's surface, of which the propulsion and steering are under the control of a driver
aboard the vehicle.

ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS
10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

The driver is indeed in control of the Mercedes DAS system, so it seems to comply IMO. At least two wheels are used for steering, so that complies. No more than two wheels are used for steering, so that also complies.

[214270]

However: if the driver pulls or pushes the steering wheel, the car does not change direction, meaning, that this is not steering.

The question is: is steering defined as making the car change direction?

As far as I can see steering is only defined as changing the toe angle(s) of no more than two wheels.

Under Article 1: Defintion, neither steering wheel nor steering are defined. Instead land vehicle is defined with this statement...

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS
1.1 Formula One Car :
An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.
1.2 Automobile :
A land vehicle running on at least four non‐aligned complete wheels, of which at least two are
used for steering and at least two for propulsion.
1.3 Land vehicle :
A locomotive device propelled by its own means, moving by constantly taking real support on
the earth's surface, of which the propulsion and steering are under the control of a driver
aboard the vehicle.

ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS
10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

The driver is indeed in control of the Mercedes DAS system, so it seems to comply IMO. At least two wheels are used for steering, so that complies. No more than two wheels are used for steering, so that also complies.

Game, set & match IMO

[sucof]

However: if the driver pulls or pushes the steering wheel, the car does not change direction, meaning, that this is not steering.

The question is: is steering defined as making the car change direction?

As far as I can see steering is only defined as changing the toe angle(s) of no more than two wheels.

Under Article 1: Defintion, neither steering wheel nor steering are defined. Instead land vehicle is defined with this statement...

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS
1.1 Formula One Car :
An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.
1.2 Automobile :
A land vehicle running on at least four non‐aligned complete wheels, of which at least two are
used for steering and at least two for propulsion.
1.3 Land vehicle :
A locomotive device propelled by its own means, moving by constantly taking real support on
the earth's surface, of which the propulsion and steering are under the control of a driver
aboard the vehicle.

ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS
10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

The driver is indeed in control of the Mercedes DAS system, so it seems to comply IMO. At least two wheels are used for steering, so that complies. No more than two wheels are used for steering, so that also complies.

Steering is not defined. However, it can be argued that steering means changing the direction of a moving car, and that it does not mean anything else. IF that is true, then what they are doing is not steering.
Legally, this would be very easy to argue.

[mkay]

However: if the driver pulls or pushes the steering wheel, the car does not change direction, meaning, that this is not steering.

The question is: is steering defined as making the car change direction?

As far as I can see steering is only defined as changing the toe angle(s) of no more than two wheels.

Under Article 1: Defintion, neither steering wheel nor steering are defined. Instead land vehicle is defined with this statement...

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS
1.1 Formula One Car :
An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.
1.2 Automobile :
A land vehicle running on at least four non‐aligned complete wheels, of which at least two are
used for steering and at least two for propulsion.
1.3 Land vehicle :
A locomotive device propelled by its own means, moving by constantly taking real support on
the earth's surface, of which the propulsion and steering are under the control of a driver
aboard the vehicle.

ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS
10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

The driver is indeed in control of the Mercedes DAS system, so it seems to comply IMO. At least two wheels are used for steering, so that complies. No more than two wheels are used for steering, so that also complies.

Game, set & match IMO

Red Bull is likely to argue that this affects aero...

[Mark4211]

from https://twitter.com/MercedesAMGF1/statu ... 4645735426

[SiLo]

The real intrigue here now is how are teams going to protest? What are they going to cite?

[214270]

The question is: is steering defined as making the car change direction?

As far as I can see steering is only defined as changing the toe angle(s) of no more than two wheels.

Under Article 1: Defintion, neither steering wheel nor steering are defined. Instead land vehicle is defined with this statement...

ARTICLE 1: DEFINITIONS
1.1 Formula One Car :
An automobile designed solely for speed races on circuits or closed courses.
1.2 Automobile :
A land vehicle running on at least four non‐aligned complete wheels, of which at least two are
used for steering and at least two for propulsion.
1.3 Land vehicle :
A locomotive device propelled by its own means, moving by constantly taking real support on
the earth's surface, of which the propulsion and steering are under the control of a driver
aboard the vehicle.

ARTICLE 10 : SUSPENSION AND STEERING SYSTEMS
10.4 Steering :
10.4.1 Any steering system which permits the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not
permitted.

https://www.fia.com/file/78015/download/26184

The driver is indeed in control of the Mercedes DAS system, so it seems to comply IMO. At least two wheels are used for steering, so that complies. No more than two wheels are used for steering, so that also complies.

Game, set & match IMO

Red Bull is likely to argue that this affects aero...

That’s a secondary benefit; it’s primary is steering.

[JordanMugen]

Steering is not defined. However, it can be argued that steering means changing the direction of a moving car, and that it does not mean anything else. IF that is true, then what they are doing is not steering.
Legally, this would be very easy to argue.

You are quite right.

steer verb to control the direction of a vehicle

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... lish/steer

steering wheel noun a wheel in a vehicle that the driver turns in order to make the vehicle go in a particular direction

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ring-wheel

[sucof]

Steering is not defined. However, it can be argued that steering means changing the direction of a moving car, and that it does not mean anything else. IF that is true, then what they are doing is not steering.
Legally, this would be very easy to argue.

You are quite right.

steer verb to control the direction of a vehicle

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... lish/steer

steering wheel noun a wheel in a vehicle that the driver turns in order to make the vehicle go in a particular direction

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ring-wheel

Thanks. It would be nice to see if this can be contended or not in any other way.

[mkay]

Game, set & match IMO

Red Bull is likely to argue that this affects aero...

That’s a secondary benefit; it’s primary is steering.

Point is, there cannot be any aerodynamic benefit to this. Otherwise it runs afoul of the movable aero device rules. This is where I believe DAS could be outlawed.

[GrizzleBoy]

It will be extremely interesting to see people trying to argue vehemently to the stewards that moving the steering wheel should not change the direction in which the wheels are facing

[jjn9128]

Re: that paper. F1 toe is only about 2-3mm as measured across the rim (diameter 358mm) or ~0.35-0.4deg