Mercedes W11

[Chene_Mostert]

I can't see how that would work whilst keeping the pistons connected to the rack, if you use floating pistons you'd only be able to attach one side to the steering rack so it would only work on one side.
I suppose you could run the pistons inside the rack cylinder itself but the moment you moved the pistons away from full extension the steering would float all over the place.

you are over thinking, the control arm is being extended or retracted, think of a telescopic crane, how it uses hydraulic cylinder to extend.
in this application you only need max 20mm of extension, so very short piston travel in cylinder.

[Zynerji]

I can't see how that would work whilst keeping the pistons connected to the rack, if you use floating pistons you'd only be able to attach one side to the steering rack so it would only work on one side.
I suppose you could run the pistons inside the rack cylinder itself but the moment you moved the pistons away from full extension the steering would float all over the place.

you are over thinking, the control arm is being extended or retracted, think of a telescopic crane, how it uses hydraulic cylinder to extend.
in this application you only need max 20mm of extension, so very short piston travel in cylinder.

Beat me to it. If the solid steering shaft in the rack is made to telescope, less than 1oz of fluid movement could do this effect.

And honestly, with the geometries involved, it might only need 3-5mm of movement in the rack to get huge toe change at the wheels.

Is the Merc steering arm in front or behind of the upright?

[izzy]

Not disputing the legality of it just the need of it. There is a big move to controlling costs in areas spectators can not identify, surely this is one?

the thing for me is: what does it mean when someone wins? in F1 it means more than when someone wins in any other series, because it's a lot of people being awesome, together, in a lot of different ways all at once

they've all, always, wanted to fiddle with the toe in on the move, but it's banned... until someone clever realised that the rule only applies IF the steering wheel is fixed! So if they unfix it...

It's so similar to F-Duct, that allowed them to stall the rear wing IF they didn't use 'a device' to do it, Using a knee and a fluidic switch was that lightbulb moment!

So if they win by being clever like this (partly of course) that is deeply satisfying for me and exactly why i'm addicted. Tho personally i don't suppose it's that huge for laptime, but all kinds of smallish benefits they can learn about. Wish they'd show us the tyre temps then we could see that benefit

[Chene_Mostert]

I can't see how that would work whilst keeping the pistons connected to the rack, if you use floating pistons you'd only be able to attach one side to the steering rack so it would only work on one side.
I suppose you could run the pistons inside the rack cylinder itself but the moment you moved the pistons away from full extension the steering would float all over the place.

you are over thinking, the control arm is being extended or retracted, think of a telescopic crane, how it uses hydraulic cylinder to extend.
in this application you only need max 20mm of extension, so very short piston travel in cylinder.

Beat me to it. If the solid steering shaft in the rack is made to telescope, less than 1oz of fluid movement could do this effect.

Yip. The version one Williams Penske active suspension was just that. It was just an electronically controlled hydraulic telescopic suspension upright that maintained a constant ride height. it still used damper and springs to "suspend" the car.

[Redragon]

They will declare legal, then all the teams will try to copy, wasting lots on development by then when they see that are not as near as Mercedes system they will complain again all together and by Spain or Britain Gps will be declare illegal. I has always been same --- for the last few years. The FIA seemed a bit cocky saying 2 weeks ago that 2021 regulations don't leave room for this kind of interpretations, they better start to reword every rule for next year because they might find themselves on a real pickle. Hopefully they allow Mercedes to have it for the rest of the year, It is what always was making F1 great when some teams are a bit more creative and smart between the lines or words ruled.

[zibby43]

Flow-viz on front suspension:

[Zynerji]

Not disputing the legality of it just the need of it. There is a big move to controlling costs in areas spectators can not identify, surely this is one?

the thing for me is: what does it mean when someone wins? in F1 it means more than when someone wins in any other series, because it's a lot of people being awesome, together, in a lot of different ways all at once

they've all, always, wanted to fiddle with the toe in on the move, but it's banned... until someone clever realised that the rule only applies IF the steering wheel is fixed! So if they unfix it...

It's so similar to F-Duct, that allowed them to stall the rear wing IF they didn't use 'a device' to do it, Using a knee and a fluidic switch was that lightbulb moment!

So if they win by being clever like this (partly of course) that is deeply satisfying for me and exactly why i'm addicted. Tho personally i don't suppose it's that huge for laptime, but all kinds of smallish benefits they can learn about. Wish they'd show us the tyre temps then we could see that benefit

I just wish this was found by Williams instead of a leading team... F1 benefits from closer racing, not the front runners building delta with tech trickery.

[PhillipM]

you are over thinking, the control arm is being extended or retracted, think of a telescopic crane, how it uses hydraulic cylinder to extend.
in this application you only need max 20mm of extension, so very short piston travel in cylinder.

Putting cylinders and hydraulic lines in the tie-rods themselves when they move would be more effort and heavier than just shuffling the entire rack back and forth.

[PlatinumZealot]

Okay, some of us take the view that Merc's system might be dangerous as a movable steering column is not 100% rigid and might fail in extreme circumstances or in the event of contact with another car. Senna........steering column failure........sensitive issue for us F1 fan.

Could the system be for qualifying only?

I don't think the steering rack shifts forward* at all. No sensbile engineer would do that. It's safer to adjust the rack ends. Besides, the photos show the tie rod ends tightly surrounded by the chassis.

You can easily do with with:
Cam mechanism
Hydraulic with check valve and release

Judging by the smoothness of how it moves... I have a feeling it is hydraulic.

[izzy]

I just wish this was found by Williams instead of a leading team... F1 benefits from closer racing, not the front runners building delta with tech trickery.

i agree! Tho it's a team culture thing too, apparently it took the engineer who invented F-Duct two years to persuade McLaren to do it. You can imagine the people on W11 could get heard easily in a positive atmosphere, and that's part of how it's arrived, not just resources. Like "it might work" instead of "it might fail"

[F1Krof]

I don't want to be bitter towards these guys but clearly there is no way Mercedes is 1 second ahead of everybody else (as stated in the video). I mean come on!

[Jolle]

I just wish this was found by Williams instead of a leading team... F1 benefits from closer racing, not the front runners building delta with tech trickery.

i agree! Tho it's a team culture thing too, apparently it took the engineer who invented F-Duct two years to persuade McLaren to do it. You can imagine the people on W11 could get heard easily in a positive atmosphere, and that's part of how it's arrived, not just resources. Like "it might work" instead of "it might fail"

Apparently, don't know anymore where I've read it, Williams had a system to warm up their tires quickly in 2014, one of the reasons they were so strong at for instance the British GP of that year. Not all innovations are visible

[Zynerji]

you are over thinking, the control arm is being extended or retracted, think of a telescopic crane, how it uses hydraulic cylinder to extend.
in this application you only need max 20mm of extension, so very short piston travel in cylinder.

Putting cylinders and hydraulic lines in the tie-rods themselves when they move would be more effort and heavier than just shuffling the entire rack back and forth.

Who said anything about tie rods being modified? Just the shaft the tire rods connect to have to be modified...

[PhillipM]

That's a lot of packaging to get in the rack bar/cylinder (which already has the hydraulics for the steering built into it, the steering ram is integral to the rack bar on these) and you'd have to run two seperate cylinders both master and slave to stop it just steering rather than altering both - and I suspect the FIA would take a dim view of it because there's no way it could failsafe - you'd end up with a wheel flapping about with a leak.
You can do it, but I don't see why, given the tiny amount of adjustment you need, you wouldn't just make the rack mount bolts into larger dowels with a sleeve bearing and slide the thing forwards 10-20mm.

[Zynerji]

I don't understand about moving it forward when it's a lateral movement inherently. Moving the entire rack forward would shorten the arms and change all the angles of the steering rods.

Simply making the inner steering rod "collapsible", like a hydraulic lifter in a pushrod engine seems infinitely easier.