Mercedes W11

[PhillipM]

Because it's not a solid rod, the hydraulic ram is an integral part of that rack bar - so you'd have to add two seperate cylinders to the outside of that, and then you'd need even more length and a bearing to take the loads that would now be trying to twist your small outer cylinders. I don't think it's feasible for packaging, you'd have to take all of that out of your steering lock travel. Plus, as I said, it wouldn't fail 'safe'
It seems overkill when you're only altering the toe angles by 1-2mm.

I also can't see anything in the regulations that forbids the rack moving as claimed earlier, there's nothing in there apart from the rack and column passing crash tests to make sure the column doesn't spear the driver in a shunt.

Of course moving it forward would change the angle of the steering arms, that's the entire point, it would push the inners forwards and the outer joint further out, giving you the toe-out in corners and vice versa. And if anything fails all the usual steering forces are still being reacted normally and your rack probably just ends up stuck at one end.

[MtthsMlw]

No DAS next year?

from the 2021 technical regulations.

[zibby43]

Nice, simple diagram/animation in this video.

[PhillipM]

Looks like it, guess the FIA decided after seeing what Merc were doing that they didn't want the inboard pivots being moved for 2021

[Rikhart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s7ScavfXwE

Nice, simple diagram/animation in this video.

From that diagram alone, I don't think this would be such a hard thing to emulate. Sure, it would require repackaging, but...

[thomin]

What I don’t get: Why unveil DAS now? It doesn’t seem to be an overly complicated system, so it should be fairly easy to copy. I would have expected them to wait for the second test or even the first race. They even could have tested it with a system that might not be race legal but ok for testing, like an extra pedal or something.

Could this all be just a distraction from something else that is less obvious?
Or is it maybe harder to copy than it would appear at first?

[izzy]

Apparently, don't know anymore where I've read it, Williams had a system to warm up their tires quickly in 2014, one of the reasons they were so strong at for instance the British GP of that year. Not all innovations are visible

oh, well on W11 they've already issued a TD to stop them cooling the tyres after the pressure test, and now quickly banned DAS for next year @MatthsMlw says, i suppose after having 6 months' notice. So if WIlliams' invention didn't survive that's no surprise! But presumably the new rule for NEXT year, instead of a TD, means W11 will get to keep DAS for this year, and make it a bit less likely the other teams will spend resource developing it, not a bad outcome

[Maplesoup]

Question if they are moving the steering rack could they get in trouble for changing the COG of the car while it's in motion?

Although the weight moved would be minor just wondering if there is anything preventing that in the rules?

[Jolle]

Apparently, don't know anymore where I've read it, Williams had a system to warm up their tires quickly in 2014, one of the reasons they were so strong at for instance the British GP of that year. Not all innovations are visible

oh, well on W11 they've already issued a TD to stop them cooling the tyres after the pressure test, and now quickly banned DAS for next year @MatthsMlw says, i suppose after having 6 months' notice. So if WIlliams' invention didn't survive that's no surprise! But presumably the new rule for NEXT year, instead of a TD, means W11 will get to keep DAS for this year, and make it a bit less likely the other teams will spend resource developing it, not a bad outcome

I presume if it gives any advantage or has the other big teams worried it gives Mercedes an advantage, it will be on other cars ASAP. Because this is a mechanical system, you can spend as much as you want on it without effecting the 2021 development (like in aero). Plus, it doesn’t look like a very expensive and complicated system.

[izzy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s7ScavfXwE

Nice, simple diagram/animation in this video.

Nice! Gary is good at explaining things isn't he. No hydraulics...

Here's Scarbs:


oh and Marc Priestly obviously lol

[astracrazy]

Could this all be just a distraction from something else that is less obvious?
Or is it maybe harder to copy than it would appear at first?

Like Brawn huh? Everyone was so consumed with the double diffuser they didnt consider the front wing, I remember Ross commenting that for the pace of the car everyone was looking at the wrong end

[izzy]

I presume if it gives any advantage or has the other big teams worried it gives Mercedes an advantage, it will be on other cars ASAP. Because this is a mechanical system, you can spend as much as you want on it without effecting the 2021 development (like in aero). Plus, it doesn’t look like a very expensive and complicated system.

yes it might just be a matter of time mightn't it, it'll be interesting to see, how many races W11 keeps the advantage and if it's opened the floodgates. A mechanical system as you say with no limits. Still, it must have to fit the car in various ways

[Zynerji]

Because it's not a solid rod, the hydraulic ram is an integral part of that rack bar - so you'd have to add two seperate cylinders to the outside of that, and then you'd need even more length and a bearing to take the loads that would now be trying to twist your small outer cylinders. I don't think it's feasible for packaging, you'd have to take all of that out of your steering lock travel. Plus, as I said, it wouldn't fail 'safe'
It seems overkill when you're only altering the toe angles by 1-2mm.

I also can't see anything in the regulations that forbids the rack moving as claimed earlier, there's nothing in there apart from the rack and column passing crash tests to make sure the column doesn't spear the driver in a shunt.

Of course moving it forward would change the angle of the steering arms, that's the entire point, it would push the inners forwards and the outer joint further out, giving you the toe-out in corners and vice versa. And if anything fails all the usual steering forces are still being reacted normally and your rack probably just ends up stuck at one end.

Changing the angles like that would be movable aerodynamics, as the steering arm would move in the airstream...

And while I like Scarbs and Gary, these are still speculation without proof...

[drunkf1fan]

No DAS next year?
https://i.imgur.com/IHOyky1.png
from the 2021 technical regulations.

I personally don't think so. I think what it means is, add DAS to the steering. The ruling seems to state not that you can't do it but that everything that adjusts the tires alignment (which I would say would be normal steering and toe adjustment) must be uniquely done (ie the only method allowed) via rotational change of the steering column.

My take is that they don't love the two part steering column and see it as a potential safety risk but they don't have any issue with toe adjustment because they'd have said yo, no toe adjustment on the fly if they wanted to ban that.

So I think they are saying do it, but do it safer. So have a system much like the dropping ride height with steering wheel turn but add toe adjustment to it. Wheel straight, no toe, wheel part turned, small toe out for faster corners, wheel turned a lot ride height drops but toe out increases further, etc. They just need to make toe change proportional to the steering lock as the right height drop is currently implemented.

[PhillipM]

What I don’t get: Why unveil DAS now? It doesn’t seem to be an overly complicated system, so it should be fairly easy to copy.

Very easy to copy, much harder to integrate into an already made chassis - that's a tightly packaged area and you need the tie rods at the correct angles to start with too.