Racing Point RP20

[Big Tea]

Can I get a C Class RP?

No but you can get an 'Aston' with a Merc engine ..............vantage anyone??...........

You could get 2 more MERC astons next year

Dont know that I could drive a pink car (without a floppy hat anyway)

Edit, Ooops sorry mods way off topic

[JordanMugen]

But IF Mercedes had given Force Point India Racing access to their CAD to copy the non-listed parts you can bet the FIA would come down pretty damn hard on them.

What if all Racing Point were given was an actual Mercedes W10 for (say) a week?

With a 3D scanner, Racing Point could then produce a close approximation of the surface geometry despite not having the original CAD model (as obviously having the CAD models would be against the rules) --- this 3D scan approach would comply with the letter of the rules, wouldn't it?

Isn't using physical example(s) of the product, the typical method of reverse engineering an item (albeit usually for a commercially available item)?

That explains why the car is so close to the W10, having likely the same low rake philosophy and also their trick suspension front and back.

The inboard front suspension is Racing Point's own design.

[jjn9128]

But IF Mercedes had given Force Point India Racing access to their CAD to copy the non-listed parts you can bet the FIA would come down pretty damn hard on them.

What if all Racing Point were given was an actual Mercedes W10 for (say) a week?

With a 3D scanner, Racing Point could then produce a close approximation of the surface geometry despite not having the original CAD model (as obviously having the CAD models would be against the rules) --- this 3D scan approach would comply with the letter of the rules, wouldn't it?

Isn't using physical example(s) of the product, the typical method of reverse engineering an item (albeit usually for a commercially available item)?

Still falls foul of this. A 3-d scan would be data, but it is passing on the design which is prohibited. Best guess from photographs is not.

4. No competitor shall be entitled :
a) To pass on or receive any information on Listed Parts (including but not limited to data, designs or drawings) directly to or from another competitor or via an external entity or third party.
b) To receive or supply consultancy or any other kind of services from or to another competitor directly or via an external entity or third party in relation to Listed Parts.

5. Any information on non-Listed Parts passed on or received by a competitor or any consultancy or any other kind of services involving a competitor in relation to non-Listed Parts shall be strictly limited to the designs or drawings necessary for the integration of the non-Listed Parts into the design of the car and/or the data necessary for the correct operation of the non-Listed Parts on the car.

6. No competitor may use movement of personnel (whether employee, consultant, contractor, secondee or any other type of permanent or temporary personnel) with another competitor, either directly or via an external entity, for the purpose of circumventing the requirements of this Appendix.
7. Any reference to

[NathanOlder]

Of course you did, and apart from a photo side on to the merc car- you also got a photo from underneath and behind the bargeboard and under the Front wing and a photo from all angles of the rear suspension... What a load of Tosh

you do seem to forget that these people have exponentially more access to view other teams' cars than you would ever have in your lifetime as a normal muggle from the grandstands. Not to mention they use the same factory windtunnel so "pictures" are more easily to come by

Fine i'll take the bait...

I'm not forgetting - merely using photographs (and intuition?!?!) to re-create something as detailed as a bargeboard area which includes fully CAD 3D modelled parts and parts that cannot only be viewed with sections of the bargeboard area removed...!!??
AND get them perfect as per the photos
AND get the exact distances between sections when viewed
AND know exactly the thickness of the stress/load bearing parts and the mounting points (which are hidden) to connect to the chassis Tub (which you just to happen to be using)
AND get a photo of the areas of the car which you cannot see from 'any humanbeing camera angle..
AND to test the "newly designed car'' last week with no obvious structural damage to parts they had to 'copy' from photos...
- I'm actually staggered at your naivety
Hashtag-Mugglelife
Drops mic and walks off..... into the sunset.... with an icecream

How do you know that the parts behind the barge boards, that you need to remove parts to see are the same as the W10 ?!?!

[Owen.C93]

Of course you did, and apart from a photo side on to the merc car- you also got a photo from underneath and behind the bargeboard and under the Front wing and a photo from all angles of the rear suspension... What a load of Tosh

You don't understand. you really don't understand how skilled these people are. They don't need to see every detail nor every piece of the jigsaw to complete the picture. It's not like they are designing an engine - It's all external surfaces. These are immensely intelligent and experienced engineers, they already know how the different flow structures work and what is required, they just need a few hints to see where to place what.

I agree they are supremely intelligent, and they have access to wind tunnels and so forth.. but you cannot sit there and listen to the TP saying it was based on photos and intuition...
These designers DON'T WORK THAT WAY... ! A family member of mine works in automotive engineering on large scale national projects... to start a project like that from blank sheet with photos only and to the scale and complexity is impossible - there is some handover of knowledge, you cannot go from blank page with photos to that... with perfect and with 100% working correlation - you have had HELP somehow...

Edit- Sorry about the CAPITALS ..!!

In automotive we have websites with full 3D scans and complete teardowns of other cars. And that's just an external website any OEM can access, they will also do their own benchmarking. The reason things aren't copied pixel perfect is because of patents and copyright.

Some people don't realise how much a CAD program will do filling in the gaps between surfaces. I can spot plenty of F1 parts that look like two sections merged with the "Multisection surface" catia tool. It's really not that difficult to recreate. Especially with so many regulated reference dimensions over the car.

[PowerandtheGlory]

You don't understand. you really don't understand how skilled these people are. They don't need to see every detail nor every piece of the jigsaw to complete the picture. It's not like they are designing an engine - It's all external surfaces. These are immensely intelligent and experienced engineers, they already know how the different flow structures work and what is required, they just need a few hints to see where to place what.

I agree they are supremely intelligent, and they have access to wind tunnels and so forth.. but you cannot sit there and listen to the TP saying it was based on photos and intuition...
These designers DON'T WORK THAT WAY... ! A family member of mine works in automotive engineering on large scale national projects... to start a project like that from blank sheet with photos only and to the scale and complexity is impossible - there is some handover of knowledge, you cannot go from blank page with photos to that... with perfect and with 100% working correlation - you have had HELP somehow...

Edit- Sorry about the CAPITALS ..!!

In automotive we have websites with full 3D scans and complete teardowns of other cars. And that's just an external website any OEM can access, they will also do their own benchmarking. The reason things aren't copied pixel perfect is because of patents and copyright.

Some people don't realise how much a CAD program will do filling in the gaps between surfaces. I can spot plenty of F1 parts that look like two sections merged with the "Multisection surface" catia tool. It's really not that difficult to recreate. Especially with so many regulated reference dimensions over the car.

Yes- but recieving scans is illegal by any means- as per the rules quoted on this very page. And the bloke said Photos and intuition... He didnt say scans

[Owen.C93]

In automotive we have websites with full 3D scans and complete teardowns of other cars. And that's just an external website any OEM can access, they will also do their own benchmarking. The reason things aren't copied pixel perfect is because of patents and copyright.

Some people don't realise how much a CAD program will do filling in the gaps between surfaces. I can spot plenty of F1 parts that look like two sections merged with the "Multisection surface" catia tool. It's really not that difficult to recreate. Especially with so many regulated reference dimensions over the car.

Yes- but recieving scans is illegal by any means- as per the rules quoted on this very page. And the bloke said Photos and intuition... He didnt say scans

My point was automotive doesn't have to.

[PowerandtheGlory]

In automotive we have websites with full 3D scans and complete teardowns of other cars. And that's just an external website any OEM can access, they will also do their own benchmarking. The reason things aren't copied pixel perfect is because of patents and copyright.

Some people don't realise how much a CAD program will do filling in the gaps between surfaces. I can spot plenty of F1 parts that look like two sections merged with the "Multisection surface" catia tool. It's really not that difficult to recreate. Especially with so many regulated reference dimensions over the car.

Yes- but recieving scans is illegal by any means- as per the rules quoted on this very page. And the bloke said Photos and intuition... He didnt say scans

My point was automotive doesn't have to.

If it was ‘so easy’ to do this with a tool- then why does every team not turn up with a W10 low rake concept or a RB high rake.. or ferrari.. i mean even Haas- who have a heavily ferrari styled car arent quick- 1 or 2 things muck it up- and they have been copying ferrari for years and where has it got them??
So we are expected to believe RP have copied merc with less shared parts, in 1 year and understood it all and got it working perfectly.. when alfa- toro rosso haas- been trying for years and failed

[cplchanb]

Yes- but recieving scans is illegal by any means- as per the rules quoted on this very page. And the bloke said Photos and intuition... He didnt say scans

My point was automotive doesn't have to.

If it was ‘so easy’ to do this with a tool- then why does every team not turn up with a W10 low rake concept or a RB high rake.. or ferrari.. i mean even Haas- who have a heavily ferrari styled car arent quick- 1 or 2 things muck it up- and they have been copying ferrari for years and where has it got them??
So we are expected to believe RP have copied merc with less shared parts, in 1 year and understood it all and got it working perfectly.. when alfa- toro rosso haas- been trying for years and failed

simple.... $$$$ it takes money to do this and stroll just injected hundreds of millions into the team to pay for new engineers and better equipment. You seem to underestimate the collective brainpower of a whole department of engineers whose sole purpose in life is to design a car. Unlike armchair engineers like us the skys the limit on what they can do for computations and data analysis, even from the photos.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes- but recieving scans is illegal by any means- as per the rules quoted on this very page. And the bloke said Photos and intuition... He didnt say scans

So you think Otmar is lieing? Why?

You think 3D scans are easy to set up without anyone noticing? Lol.

How do they 3D scan under the wings during a race weekend? How do they 3D scan in between the bargeboards? You can't capture behind surfaces in 3D scans. Those scans are optical too. 3D scans look like a surface cloud of points, a sometimes messy one. Let's not even get into how they manage to keep an opnents car still for the entire scan. They probavly have a weather machine to stop wind from blowing too.

We havent seen any photos of engineers popping out their 3D scanners in parc ferme have we? We must have seen a few guys setting up tripods and markers out there.


Otmar's answers when asked...
https://racer.com/2020/02/24/szafnauer- ... ilarities/

[PowerandtheGlory]

Yes- but recieving scans is illegal by any means- as per the rules quoted on this very page. And the bloke said Photos and intuition... He didnt say scans

So you think Otmar is lieing? Why?

You think 3D scans are easy to set up without anyone noticing? Lol.

How do they 3D scan under the wings during a race weekend? How do they 3D scan in between the bargeboards? You can't capture behind surfaces in 3D scans. Those scans are optical too. 3D scans look like a surface cloud of points, a sometimes messy one. Let's not even get into how they manage to keep an opnents car still for the entire scan. They probavly have a weather machine to stop wind from blowing too.

We havent seen any photos of engineers popping out their 3D scanners in parc ferme have we? We must have seen a few guys setting up tripods and markers out there.


Otmar's answers when asked...
https://racer.com/2020/02/24/szafnauer- ... ilarities/

They lie because they had help from merc, and yes you need technical drawings and/or scans.. mclraren and renault will protest the car in melbourne. RP may even take points off Redbull - which will wind up horner.
If they are 3rd or 4th best team this year - its a magical and almost impossible turnround- without help from merc.

[PowerandtheGlory]

Ive moaned enough now- so im gonna leave this thread alone..

[Stahlkocher]

Oh ye people of little faith.

I mean - I can understand you. What would F1 be without drama? But this in here is getting kind of ridiculous.

There is so much talk here that makes no sense to me.

First: Stability of parts. Force India/Racing Point is successfully competing in the Formula 1 for so long now. Do you really believe they can't calculate aerodynamic loads on parts? Especially as exactly these calculations will help them further in determining how parts are shaped. Because Mercedes designs their parts with these aerodynamic loads in mind. It only gets complicated if the specific flexibility of a part is critical for its performance.

Second: Underside of the front wings. Every time a car breaks down every photographer gets a free chance to get images of that when the car gets lifted away by a crane. Also these front wings are quite regularly displayed in front of the garage, same with the engine cover. Quite easy to get decent pictures from basically any imaginable angle in these cases.

Inner layers of the barge boards: Again there are images from below when a car hangs down from a crane. There are images from above as well. Even sites like Auto Motor und Sport occasionally post images like that. They are again quite easy to make. Just go up to a car and make an image. Example: After a race when all the cars sit there, on Thursdays when the cars go to scrutineering, in the general shuffle ahead of race starts… You basically just have to be bold enough to walk up and take those images.

Getting all that to work? That is what they had all the wind tunnel time and CAD computing power of half of last season and the winter for. Certainly not an easy task, but if they copy the car front to back there is probably not too much of a risk that they build big mistakes into their model of the new car. That reduces wasted time by a lot. It is basically all about the right methodology there.

One thing is for sure: Their simulation tools are really good, very likely better than those of quite a few competing midfield teams. Otherwise they would not have been able to pull that off. On the other hand that means that at least some of the teams screaming "impossible" are just blindsided by that and we got a glimpse of one difference between teams that usually falls completely under the table.

Take a Haas: They are basically trying to copy (parts) of Ferrari for quite some time now and failed because of correlation issues every time at some point. On the other hand I am pretty sure that RB/Ferrari/Mercedes could copy their competitors cars. But why would they? Then they used all their resources and are just as fast as the competitor was in the last season.

[ispano6]

But IF Mercedes had given Force Point India Racing access to their CAD to copy the non-listed parts you can bet the FIA would come down pretty damn hard on them.

What if all Racing Point were given was an actual Mercedes W10 for (say) a week?

With a 3D scanner, Racing Point could then produce a close approximation of the surface geometry despite not having the original CAD model (as obviously having the CAD models would be against the rules) --- this 3D scan approach would comply with the letter of the rules, wouldn't it?

Isn't using physical example(s) of the product, the typical method of reverse engineering an item (albeit usually for a commercially available item)?

That explains why the car is so close to the W10, having likely the same low rake philosophy and also their trick suspension front and back.

The inboard front suspension is Racing Point's own design.

That is good to know if true. Wouldn't want RP getting that front suspension from the W10, that would be too easy wouldn't it!

[wesley123]

People are discussing all about the exterior and aerodynamics. But there is one thing that is way more important in this scenario; packaging. Mercedes has put in significant amounts of work to get a rear end that is as tight as possible. Theirs is really extreme in that regard.

Last years Racing Point didn't even come close in that regard, yet for this year it is just as shrunk as the Mercedes is. You can copy the outside of a car, but not really the internals. And yet, Racing Point has somehow managed packaging all other midfield teams can dream of.