Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GhostF1]

Had another random idea.

A while ago we were debating whether or not Honda had a clutch between the MGU-H and turbo (brought on by their class of the field performances at high altitude tracks) this is allowed by the regulations, we had decent reasons for both sides (complexity was one, even Renault said they wouldn't due to complexity), I still believe it's likely Honda do, even more so now with the onset of this anti-lag discussion. My main reason for believing in this clutch idea was the theoretical gain in compressor speed it allows. The turbo is not speed restricted but the MGU-H is restricted to 125,000rpm by the regulations, these two have to be geared 1:1 as well so it poses a hard limit on the turbo speed therefore maximum boost potential. So there was an argument Honda could decouple the MGU-H from the turbo at maximum power on straights to allow for an increase in turbine speed to compensate for the altitude deficit, it would also make sense as it seemed evident they may have gotten the mapping a little off sometimes, hence Max's mentioning of turbo lag out of some corners on occasion last year, that was the theory.

So now I am thinking.. why is this anti-lag sound/behaviour most prevalent during high power/quali laps since late last year and not really anything less than that (during sustained race modes, it is not present)? We are talking about it like it's primary use would be for energy recovery benefits and while it is possible, what I'm thinking, mainly because it's most obvious on fast laps, is what if this anti-lag is being used on high power modes as Honda have decoupled the MGU-H and are therefore free to run the turbo at as high an RPM as they want, no longer restricted to the 125,000rpm limit of the MGU-H. This anti-lag is a system which has become available to Honda with skip-fire use so are they using this to compensate for MGU-H motoring loss to sustain the turbo? Or is it to keep the turbine at a certain speed to recouple the H momentarily for power out of corners? Or would that even still be necessary if this is mapped correctly? Or a myriad of other things.

The work with Honda Jet, a lot of focus has been around the turbo from Honda, it's what they bring up all the time. I can't initially see why this is not a possibility for high power modes with the right engine and the right fuel allowing such high boost. Spec 4 and the special new fuel anyone?

This is a nice idea and all, but i dont think it can work in the split turbo design. If you were to clutch out the MGU-H, considering it sits between the turbo, you would disconnect the turbine from the compressor, basically shutting the turbo off. You would need a big-ass flywheel to maintain any momentum to the turbine when you were gonna clutch the compressor back in.

Hey look, I'm just throwing a theory out there. I am aware I could be extremely wrong and as such I don't have every answer to more in depth questions in what im suggesting, but it's great to discuss.

As for disconnecting the MGU-H, I can think of a few ideas design wise that would allow the MGU-H to "de-couple" from the shaft which would run straight through without affecting either component of the turbocharger (i.e a really basic explanation, a mechanism where the H can "let go" of the shaft running through it and grab hold again when in operation). So it could be possible. It definitely isn't impossible.

There is more to the operation of each system we need to consider, the timing is a crucial one and the fact it is always Qualifying simulations or the like that this operation is most prevalent, leads me personally to find other explanations. For example if this behaviour was only evident during sustained race mode runs at lower power settings and absent for quali or higher power modes, then I'd be certain the anti-lag sound was for H generation only, but it's quite the opposite.

Whatever this is, it stimulates fascinating conversation!

[etusch]

I like to read new ideas even if it is not used in f1 engine. I learnt here very much.
Some redbull men claim that they will have party mode this year. If Honda is not using oil burning, I wonder where that power will come from. May be we will see more aggressive way of this bangs when they are Q3 run.

[Bandit1216]

Had another random idea.

A while ago we were debating whether or not Honda had a clutch between the MGU-H and turbo (brought on by their class of the field performances at high altitude tracks) this is allowed by the regulations, we had decent reasons for both sides (complexity was one, even Renault said they wouldn't due to complexity), I still believe it's likely Honda do, even more so now with the onset of this anti-lag discussion. My main reason for believing in this clutch idea was the theoretical gain in compressor speed it allows. The turbo is not speed restricted but the MGU-H is restricted to 125,000rpm by the regulations, these two have to be geared 1:1 as well so it poses a hard limit on the turbo speed therefore maximum boost potential. So there was an argument Honda could decouple the MGU-H from the turbo at maximum power on straights to allow for an increase in turbine speed to compensate for the altitude deficit, it would also make sense as it seemed evident they may have gotten the mapping a little off sometimes, hence Max's mentioning of turbo lag out of some corners on occasion last year, that was the theory.

So now I am thinking.. why is this anti-lag sound/behaviour most prevalent during high power/quali laps since late last year and not really anything less than that (during sustained race modes, it is not present)? We are talking about it like it's primary use would be for energy recovery benefits and while it is possible, what I'm thinking, mainly because it's most obvious on fast laps, is what if this anti-lag is being used on high power modes as Honda have decoupled the MGU-H and are therefore free to run the turbo at as high an RPM as they want, no longer restricted to the 125,000rpm limit of the MGU-H. This anti-lag is a system which has become available to Honda with skip-fire use so are they using this to compensate for MGU-H motoring loss to sustain the turbo? Or is it to keep the turbine at a certain speed to recouple the H momentarily for power out of corners? Or would that even still be necessary if this is mapped correctly? Or a myriad of other things.



The work with Honda Jet, a lot of focus has been around the turbo from Honda, it's what they bring up all the time. I can't initially see why this is not a possibility for high power modes with the right engine and the right fuel allowing such high boost. Spec 4 and the special new fuel anyone?

This is a nice idea and all, but i dont think it can work in the split turbo design. If you were to clutch out the MGU-H, considering it sits between the turbo, you would disconnect the turbine from the compressor, basically shutting the turbo off. You would need a big-ass flywheel to maintain any momentum to the turbine when you were gonna clutch the compressor back in.

Hey look, I'm just throwing a theory out there. I am aware I could be extremely wrong and as such I don't have every answer to more in depth questions in what im suggesting, but it's great to discuss.

As for disconnecting the MGU-H, I can think of a few ideas design wise that would allow the MGU-H to "de-couple" from the shaft which would run straight through without affecting either component of the turbocharger (i.e a really basic explanation, a mechanism where the H can "let go" of the shaft running through it and grab hold again when in operation). So it could be possible. It definitely isn't impossible.

There is more to the operation of each system we need to consider, the timing is a crucial one and the fact it is always Qualifying simulations or the like that this operation is most prevalent, leads me personally to find other explanations. For example if this behaviour was only evident during sustained race mode runs at lower power settings and absent for quali or higher power modes, then I'd be certain the anti-lag sound was for H generation only, but it's quite the opposite.

Whatever this is, it stimulates fascinating conversation!

Good theory. This could perhaps even be done with 2 freewheel bearings. Inner turbo shaft can go faster then an outer Mgu-H shaft but not vice versa. I would think a designer would strive to get the complete assembly speed as low as possible though for better efficiency. Perhaps Honda is just at this moment the team that has the best Compressor and turbine efficiency, and thus have the lowest speed, and just have the most rpm spare for high altitude compensation. The opposite to what they had with their first in-vee compressor design.

[PlatinumZealot]

“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.

There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.

I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.

This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.

[saviour stivala]

This is a nice idea and all, but i dont think it can work in the split turbo design. If you were to clutch out the MGU-H, considering it sits between the turbo, you would disconnect the turbine from the compressor, basically shutting the turbo off. You would need a big-ass flywheel to maintain any momentum to the turbine when you were gonna clutch the compressor back in.

Hey look, I'm just throwing a theory out there. I am aware I could be extremely wrong and as such I don't have every answer to more in depth questions in what im suggesting, but it's great to discuss.

As for disconnecting the MGU-H, I can think of a few ideas design wise that would allow the MGU-H to "de-couple" from the shaft which would run straight through without affecting either component of the turbocharger (i.e a really basic explanation, a mechanism where the H can "let go" of the shaft running through it and grab hold again when in operation). So it could be possible. It definitely isn't impossible.

There is more to the operation of each system we need to consider, the timing is a crucial one and the fact it is always Qualifying simulations or the like that this operation is most prevalent, leads me personally to find other explanations. For example if this behaviour was only evident during sustained race mode runs at lower power settings and absent for quali or higher power modes, then I'd be certain the anti-lag sound was for H generation only, but it's quite the opposite.

Whatever this is, it stimulates fascinating conversation!

Good theory. This could perhaps even be done with 2 freewheel bearings. Inner turbo shaft can go faster then an outer Mgu-H shaft but not vice versa. I would think a designer would strive to get the complete assembly speed as low as possible though for better efficiency. Perhaps Honda is just at this moment the team that has the best Compressor and turbine efficiency, and thus have the lowest speed, and just have the most rpm spare for high altitude compensation. The opposite to what they had with their first in-vee compressor design.

"This could perhaps even be done with 2-freewheel bearings". Those type of bearing are called a 'SPRAG-CLUTCH'. which is a one-way freewheel clutch. allowing single direction rotation. when the unit rotates in one direction the rollers slip or free-wheel, but when a torque is applied in the opposite direction, the rollers tilt slightly or are pushed into a smaller space, producing a wedging or friction.

[saviour stivala]

Electrically decoupling an electrical motor coupled to other equipment (switching-off electrics/taking it off-line) when there is no clutch in between the two means the rotating element of the electric motor coupled to the other equipment is still rotating with what it is coupled too. rotating dead-weight all one will be doing.

[Bandit1216]

“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.

There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.

I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.

This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.

Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?

[GhostF1]

“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.

There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.

I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.

This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.

Curious, I'm actually interested as to why you keep bringing up electric cars as an argument against clutching a Formula 1 MGU-H.. and I respect that you used to work in the power industry so I mean no disrespect when I ask.. where on Earth would you find any form of generator, forcibly geared 1:1 to some sort of turbocharger along a singular shaft? I'd like to assume there isn't a random set of insane regulations imposed for no reason in the power industry..
There is no reason for any component on those electric road vehicles to have a clutch similar to what is being discussed unless EV's suddenly have the requirement for turbo's attached on the same axis (although the Taycan Turbo S moniker could confuse people). None at all. None of them ever conceived have even remotely the same sort of application, scenario, design or requirement as to what is being discussed for these PU's. Happy to be proven wrong but I can't see the relevance.

This is a very novel scenario, quite apart from the fact this engine design is insanely unique enough, we have a set of regulations that complicate it's setup and operation further, this would not apply to a road car/electric vehicle scenario..
So question to you: If you have an electric machine geared 1:1 with a turbocharger and have a set of regulations imposed, one being a speed limit of 125,000rpm on said electric machine however this limit does not apply to the turbocharger and you wish for said turbocharger to be spun past that speed, and regulations specifically state this machine may be clutched, how would you legally increase the speed of the turbocharger beyond 125,000rpm?

[GhostF1]

“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.

There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.

I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.

This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.

Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?

This I'm afraid is an absolute mystery. No one has even laid eyes on one outside of the manufacturers. And if you see any information regarding one, be aware it would be pure speculation. They are the current F1 power unit's most guarded secret among the 4 manufacturers.

[dren]

Does the Honda PU do this during braking events on all corners, or just some? Is it being used during race simulations? It sounds like it is only being used on fast lap runs. Both answers could help us narrow down the benefits and what might be taking place.

Possible benefits when braking:

Anti-lag without using ES to motor the MGUH
Extra load to the MGUH for more ES
Compounding with extra harvest for possible magnifying effect
Loading the MGUK more during braking
Cooling benefits - in 'party mode' the ICE is run hotter thus requires more cooling via gas during braking events

[PlatinumZealot]

@Ghost and @Stivala

Too long to respond in detail.
I am gonna leave this here courtesy of Garrett :

Notice there are no clutch mechanisms.

https://www.garrettmotion.com/electric- ... t-e-turbo/



Guys remember the turbochargers speed is not as variable and inefficient as in street cars. We want it to maintain a certain speed range to be in boost as much as possible. So the increased moment of inertia is not that detrimental as you might think. In fact a clutch might be heavier and prone to wear and thus failure.

[Bandit1216]

All we really know it has 3 wires

[PlatinumZealot]

This is what the early prototypes looked like.

[Bandit1216]

That black thing must be the flux capacitor.

[saviour stivala]

“This is the early prototype” certainly nothing to do with what is used in formula one.