Racing Point RP20

[Manoah2u]

Does anyone have a comparison between the brake drums of W10 and RP20?
Everyone knoes they're similar cars but I think it's not possible to make such similar brake drums without having the projects...Probably if you scrabbed the pink from the nose you would find a grey star

Here ya go;

Some more similarities with W10
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERKHgQdX0AAgWlD.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERKHgQuWsAgTYYB.jpg

These guys are brilliant. Engineers did an amazing copy.

Quite embarassing….A. Green (Racing Point technical director) said that they were inspired by that car, not that they repainted it… They undoubtely will be very fast, in particular in those races such as Silverstone, Melbourne and Barcelona, where the W10 dominated

Though i think they'll definately be quite the bit faster compared to last year, taking last season's car is not neccesarily a golden bullet. Merc has improved their cars, Ferrari has, RedBull has, so this season's car for them (meaining the W11, F1000, etc) will be faster than last season's car. If we look at Haas or Alfa Romeo taking the Ferrari of the season before (2018 cars in 2019), neither Alfa nor Haas ever was anywhere near the front, despite the fact that in 2018, those cars WERE.

There's little reason to believe that the RP20 will be any different. Yes, they have the W10's design, and a Mercedes engine, but in the end, they still manufacture it themselves, and haven't got the same engineers/personel at hand that Mercedes has. They can use last year's data, but with new tracks like Zandvoort and Vietnam, they'll be in the dark, so i'd expect those tracks to see them perform less.

In regards to whether it's smart to 'lose' your own 'design evolution', and simply settle with a competitor's car, i think it's largely down to intentions and budget. And quite frankly i think they made a smart move.
2021 will be vastly different, so they will HAVE to have a self-built car for 2021 anyway.

2020 Mercedes won't be able to be used in 2021, so what's going on now with RP, Haas, Alfa can't happen in 2021 anyway.

So if Racing Point would invest in a 2020 car built completely by themselves, with all the evolution involved, and thus investment, you could argue that it goes to a waste somehow.
Instead, they certainly have made their maths and decided, hey, let's buy the Mercedes W10 design, which is proven to work, we will be faster at the start of the season and lose a bit in the development run towards the season finale,
but will will save TONS of money and TIME on this 2020 car.

That decision MUST have been made a long time ago, and as such, the entire team is focusing a lot more on the 2021 contender, built by THEMSELVES. like up untill last seasons, even IF they would 'steal' some designs here and there.

Regarding the fact that in 2021 the team will be Aston Martin, and there is being invested there heavily,
it makes all the sense to avoid wasting unneccesary investments in the 2020 car, so i can completely understand their philosophy to get a 'second hand merc'.

It surprises me Williams hasn't done that. Either it's a case of blind pride at Williams, perhaps also faith of investors, or there's no financial/time benefit for them if buying the Mercedes of last year turns out to be more expensive than staying with their own 'dog'.
Personally i doubt the latter, as if Williams would have done what RP has done instead, then they'd be immediately out of the back of the field and compete mid-field, which would be extreme boost in money gained at the end of the year, their exposure, and so much more. It would also relieve them of investing in their never-ending story car, which can be put better to use for the 2021 car, which could be their own design again.

The ONLY obstacle i'd see in that case, is that if they really were clueless in what caused the car of this and last two seasons to be such a dog, in other words, touching in the dark, then if they bought a car of a competitor, then they would have learned NOTHING, which could prove dangerous for 2021. I'm not sure they HAVE learned yet to the fullest, so it remains to be seen.

if that is NOT the case, then it is blind pride, and as such, i think Racing Point shows a far more sound and intelligent move. After all, it is in this team's history and philosophy to do AS MUCH with as little money possible,
so i can only reason that deciding to go for a last-season car IS to gain as MUCH with as little investment for 2020.

[izzy]

Though i think they'll definately be quite the bit faster compared to last year, taking last season's car is not neccesarily a golden bullet. Merc has improved their cars, Ferrari has, RedBull has, so this season's car for them (meaining the W11, F1000, etc) will be faster than last season's car. If we look at Haas or Alfa Romeo taking the Ferrari of the season before (2018 cars in 2019), neither Alfa nor Haas ever was anywhere near the front, despite the fact that in 2018, those cars WERE.

There's little reason to believe that the RP20 will be any different. Yes, they have the W10's design, and a Mercedes engine, but in the end, they still manufacture it themselves, and haven't got the same engineers/personel at hand that Mercedes has. They can use last year's data, but with new tracks like Zandvoort and Vietnam, they'll be in the dark, so i'd expect those tracks to see them perform less.

it's not going to be a pink W10 tho is it? It's got W11 drivetrain and suspension and cooling and brakes! They're in the W11 wind tunnel. They've even said the car in Oz is going to look completely different, that means W10.5 at least, if not W10.8

[NOBS]

Though i think they'll definately be quite the bit faster compared to last year, taking last season's car is not neccesarily a golden bullet. Merc has improved their cars, Ferrari has, RedBull has, so this season's car for them (meaining the W11, F1000, etc) will be faster than last season's car. If we look at Haas or Alfa Romeo taking the Ferrari of the season before (2018 cars in 2019), neither Alfa nor Haas ever was anywhere near the front, despite the fact that in 2018, those cars WERE.

There's little reason to believe that the RP20 will be any different. Yes, they have the W10's design, and a Mercedes engine, but in the end, they still manufacture it themselves, and haven't got the same engineers/personel at hand that Mercedes has. They can use last year's data, but with new tracks like Zandvoort and Vietnam, they'll be in the dark, so i'd expect those tracks to see them perform less.

it's not going to be a pink W10 tho is it? It's got W11 drivetrain and suspension and cooling and brakes! They're in the W11 wind tunnel. They've even said the car in Oz is going to look completely different, that means W10.5 at least, if not W10.8

That will be super if they can get W10.5.It will demonstrate technical might to understand such a complex design.

[izzy]

it's not going to be a pink W10 tho is it? It's got W11 drivetrain and suspension and cooling and brakes! They're in the W11 wind tunnel. They've even said the car in Oz is going to look completely different, that means W10.5 at least, if not W10.8

That will be super if they can get W10.5.It will demonstrate technical might to understand such a complex design.

They did pretty well with hardly any money and a worse wind tunnel, i bet they have some pretty good aeros, and now they've been able to watch the flows in its own top super correlating tunnel, so it's only going to get better i think, until they stop developing

[jjn9128]

They did pretty well with hardly any money and a worse wind tunnel, i bet they have some pretty good aeros, and now they've been able to watch the flows in its own top super correlating tunnel,

They've been using the Toyota wind tunnel 5-6 years. TMG has one of the best F1 spec wind tunnels, along with Sauber. Before that they did well in their modified 40% tunnel which while not top spec, they at least understood and got good correlation from. The engineers will probably be happier not doing 1 week in 5 out in Cologne though which will probably help development.

Aerodynamicists at all the teams are about the same in terms of how good they are, the top teams just have more and more money to test more parts. Also their CFD methods teams are bigger.

[izzy]

They've been using the Toyota wind tunnel 5-6 years. TMG has one of the best F1 spec wind tunnels, along with Sauber. Before that they did well in their modified 40% tunnel which while not top spec, they at least understood and got good correlation from. The engineers will probably be happier not doing 1 week in 5 out in Cologne though which will probably help development.

Aerodynamicists at all the teams are about the same in terms of how good they are, the top teams just have more and more money to test more parts. Also their CFD methods teams are bigger.

are wind tunnels all the same? i thought i read somewhere that in the best ones they can capture more data per hour? and do yaw and things like that? And istr Andy Green saying something about the Mercedes tunnel being calibrated or something for the low rake. Ferrari replaced theirs didn't they, and McLaren are

I could imagine F1 aeros all being better than 'ordinary' aeros, but people aren't exactly the same at anything, i mean Adrian...

[jjn9128]

are wind tunnels all the same? i thought i read somewhere that in the best ones they can capture more data per hour? and do yaw and things like that? And istr Andy Green saying something about the Mercedes tunnel being calibrated or something for the low rake. Ferrari replaced theirs didn't they, and McLaren are

I could imagine F1 aeros all being better than 'ordinary' aeros, but people aren't exactly the same at anything, i mean Adrian...

Wind tunnels are not all the same. For F1 the best tunnels have the smallest blockages and the lowest freestream turbulence. Data capture will be pretty universal across the board as things like pressure transducers and force balance load cells will be off-the-shelf (albeit high end) parts, so they're limited by the logging frequency of those electronics. Most tunnels were built in the 90's for 40% models so had to be upgraded to increase the working section size for 60% models, exceptions being Sauber and Toyota who built their tunnels in the 00's for full scale testing, AFAIK Alpha Tauri are the only team still using 50% models. All F1 tunnels will all do model yaw, but the belt yaws for only a few. I can't think of any specific changes one would make to the tunnel for low rake.... except for tailoring the plenum suction under the belt to stop it lifting... but they base that off an initial CFD run..

For the most part F1 aeros are no different from any other industry. There are exceptions in senior positions as in any professions.

[f1rules]

this car must be running the softest rear damper setup in history of f1, inverted rake with drs open

[trinidefender]

this car must be running the softest rear damper setup in history of f1, inverted rake with drs open
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES1QrAJXsAU ... name=small

Two points:
1. Dampers don't support the weight of the car, they control and dampen out movements of the suspension, hence the name.
2. Heave springs, geometry and things like the now banned FRIC system control squat like shown in the picture.

[f1rules]

thanks for clarifying, im not to much into that sorry, still its impressive to see, i know ferrari gains hugely from this also, was mentioned by danish F1 commentators last year, that Haas only had one hydraulic rear suspension supplied by ferrari, the other was conventional, hope im using the rght words, and the drivers had every sec gp. and apparently the hydraulic was ALOT better for top speed, i think they said 5-6 kmh on some straights and this info they for sure had from Kevin

this car must be running the softest rear damper setup in history of f1, inverted rake with drs open
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ES1QrAJXsAU ... name=small

Two points:
1. Dampers don't support the weight of the car, they control movements and dampen out movements of the suspension, hence the name.
2. Heave springs, geometry and things like the now banned FRIC system control squat like shown in the picture.

[NAPI10]

Eager to see changes on RP20 for Aus GP(as conveyed by Mr. Green)

[bluechris]

Here ya go;

Quite embarassing….A. Green (Racing Point technical director) said that they were inspired by that car, not that they repainted it… They undoubtely will be very fast, in particular in those races such as Silverstone, Melbourne and Barcelona, where the W10 dominated

Though i think they'll definately be quite the bit faster compared to last year, taking last season's car is not neccesarily a golden bullet. Merc has improved their cars, Ferrari has, RedBull has, so this season's car for them (meaining the W11, F1000, etc) will be faster than last season's car. If we look at Haas or Alfa Romeo taking the Ferrari of the season before (2018 cars in 2019), neither Alfa nor Haas ever was anywhere near the front, despite the fact that in 2018, those cars WERE.

There's little reason to believe that the RP20 will be any different. Yes, they have the W10's design, and a Mercedes engine, but in the end, they still manufacture it themselves, and haven't got the same engineers/personel at hand that Mercedes has. They can use last year's data, but with new tracks like Zandvoort and Vietnam, they'll be in the dark, so i'd expect those tracks to see them perform less.

In regards to whether it's smart to 'lose' your own 'design evolution', and simply settle with a competitor's car, i think it's largely down to intentions and budget. And quite frankly i think they made a smart move.
2021 will be vastly different, so they will HAVE to have a self-built car for 2021 anyway.

2020 Mercedes won't be able to be used in 2021, so what's going on now with RP, Haas, Alfa can't happen in 2021 anyway.

So if Racing Point would invest in a 2020 car built completely by themselves, with all the evolution involved, and thus investment, you could argue that it goes to a waste somehow.
Instead, they certainly have made their maths and decided, hey, let's buy the Mercedes W10 design, which is proven to work, we will be faster at the start of the season and lose a bit in the development run towards the season finale,
but will will save TONS of money and TIME on this 2020 car.

That decision MUST have been made a long time ago, and as such, the entire team is focusing a lot more on the 2021 contender, built by THEMSELVES. like up untill last seasons, even IF they would 'steal' some designs here and there.

Regarding the fact that in 2021 the team will be Aston Martin, and there is being invested there heavily,
it makes all the sense to avoid wasting unneccesary investments in the 2020 car, so i can completely understand their philosophy to get a 'second hand merc'.

It surprises me Williams hasn't done that. Either it's a case of blind pride at Williams, perhaps also faith of investors, or there's no financial/time benefit for them if buying the Mercedes of last year turns out to be more expensive than staying with their own 'dog'.
Personally i doubt the latter, as if Williams would have done what RP has done instead, then they'd be immediately out of the back of the field and compete mid-field, which would be extreme boost in money gained at the end of the year, their exposure, and so much more. It would also relieve them of investing in their never-ending story car, which can be put better to use for the 2021 car, which could be their own design again.

The ONLY obstacle i'd see in that case, is that if they really were clueless in what caused the car of this and last two seasons to be such a dog, in other words, touching in the dark, then if they bought a car of a competitor, then they would have learned NOTHING, which could prove dangerous for 2021. I'm not sure they HAVE learned yet to the fullest, so it remains to be seen.

if that is NOT the case, then it is blind pride, and as such, i think Racing Point shows a far more sound and intelligent move. After all, it is in this team's history and philosophy to do AS MUCH with as little money possible,
so i can only reason that deciding to go for a last-season car IS to gain as MUCH with as little investment for 2020.

If they had fundamental flaws with their previous design's that they didn't understand, then they are in a much better position now to evolve with this base.
What i wanna see is their 2021 design and maybe there is a possibility to evolve this Mercedes design better than the Mercedes itself because Mercedes has a many years aero project but RP can proceed with a clean sheet. Who know? Maybe they will do it and i hope that they will.

[Racer X]

If they had fundamental flaws with their previous design's that they didn't understand, then they are in a much better position now to evolve with this base.
What i wanna see is their 2021 design and maybe there is a possibility to evolve this Mercedes design better than the Mercedes itself because Mercedes has a many years aero project but RP can proceed with a clean sheet. Who know? Maybe they will do it and i hope that they will.

Im eager to see Racing Point do what they do with a strong base. You have to assume they will be able to develop the car and fine tune the design enough to make noticeable gains. I expect they will have their development of this car done by Barcelona. Then we will just see them going to every GP with a car they fully* understand post Barcelona (i assume with a car with high reliability i assume their upgrades will be less experimental and more just fine tuning). As Green already said they will bring upgrades to this car quickly and then focus on next years car. So updates by Barcelona or even one more update post Barcelona makes sense to me. But im a little sad because well if they fully developed this car during an entire season they could really give us a show i cant wait to see the car at Baku, Monaco and other tracks where the car is less important and the driver has more impact. Because now our drivers have a car that will allow them to be close to the front runners.

[Manoah2u]

If they had fundamental flaws with their previous design's that they didn't understand, then they are in a much better position now to evolve with this base.

What i wanna see is their 2021 design and maybe there is a possibility to evolve this Mercedes design better than the Mercedes itself because Mercedes has a many years aero project but RP can proceed with a clean sheet. Who know? Maybe they will do it and i hope that they will.

Quite possible, and then there's the 'roof' they might have reached with the design they were going with previously,
and this solution would be that they will be 'competitive' in the midfield where as staying with their previous design would see them drop down to the back of the midfield.

That said,

There have been a variety of 'attacks' on teams using 'discarded' designs of top-team cars,
claiming it's wrong and ruining the sport etc etc.

Something to concider though, is that if we go WAY back in F1, then there are some teams that started out as existing teams outside of F1, like F2000 etc., and then entered F1, bought the design/cars from competitors the year before (not always championship winning), then used that base to build upon and learn upon, with some achieving almost instant success. I'm not sure whether Team Lotus and Williams were examples of that, but there have been a variety.

In other words, it's a concept that has worked. Especially if you're not aiming for WDC/WCC but just be successful behind the frontrunners.

Offcourse there are areas where they can learn from a lot, and use for their 2021 competitor, but to be honest, i think that you'd be looking at such a different design philosophy, that if you had to start NOW with your 2021 car, then you're guaranteed to be too late to the game and you're gonna play catch up. So i rather doubt that they'd be doing that, and i doubt that the design is going to be usable for 2021 at all, since we're seeing a return in 'ground effects' design philosophy.

[Manoah2u]

that said.....what if crazy happens and Mercedes gets DSQ with the DAS system, and RP wins