Mercedes W11

[Blackout]

But I think this is not new: the 2016 Ferrari exhaust pipes too merged inside the bell-housing and the Ferrari 2016 gearbox dont seem to have the middle studs.
A very similar solution
https://i.imgur.com/jiswWJv.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy ... hX6oK7vzZg
https://sf.viepratique.fr/wp-content/up ... n-3_FR.jpg

[saviour stivala]

According to technical regulations 5.3.8 all six mandatory M12 studs mounting gearbox to engine must be used. This while one F1 site this week was telling its followers that Mercedes uses only for mounting studs.

[Just_a_fan]

I'd be surprised if the FIA allow that wheel bell design to pass. It's basically what RedBull had banned years ago.

isn't what was banned blowing through the hollow axle? Then what Mercedes do is have a skinny "solid" axle with space around it and blow through the wheel into the spokes

Before they had the blowing through the axle itself, they blew through the sides of the axle. Because this was moving in rotation, it was deemed to be moving aero.

[izzy]

I'd be surprised if the FIA allow that wheel bell design to pass. It's basically what RedBull had banned years ago.

isn't what was banned blowing through the hollow axle? Then what Mercedes do is have a skinny "solid" axle with space around it and blow through the wheel into the spokes

Before they had the blowing through the axle itself, they blew through the sides of the axle. Because this was moving in rotation, it was deemed to be moving aero.

cos this is what they've had for the last 2 years, blowing through into the spokes, the green arrow and highlights

[Just_a_fan]

isn't what was banned blowing through the hollow axle? Then what Mercedes do is have a skinny "solid" axle with space around it and blow through the wheel into the spokes

Before they had the blowing through the axle itself, they blew through the sides of the axle. Because this was moving in rotation, it was deemed to be moving aero.

cos this is what they've had for the last 2 years, blowing through into the spokes, the green arrow and highlights
https://66.media.tumblr.com/f8b988992ca ... o1_540.jpg

Yeah, but different end of the car and for different reasons. The front axle blowing was solely for aero purposes with no excuses given about cooling etc. It was solely to do with tyre wake control. That was well known and then controlled before being banned. The rear wheel blowing was principally thermal control of the rear tyres. That wasn't banned.

[izzy]

Before they had the blowing through the axle itself, they blew through the sides of the axle. Because this was moving in rotation, it was deemed to be moving aero.

cos this is what they've had for the last 2 years, blowing through into the spokes, the green arrow and highlights
https://66.media.tumblr.com/f8b988992ca ... o1_540.jpg

Yeah, but different end of the car and for different reasons. The front axle blowing was solely for aero purposes with no excuses given about cooling etc. It was solely to do with tyre wake control. That was well known and then controlled before being banned. The rear wheel blowing was principally thermal control of the rear tyres. That wasn't banned.

I think the fronts were the same, before this, using the spare holes in the hub face to feed the wheel spokes. I can't find a photo tho, but i think this is quite likely legal, tho it is quite hard to guess as with "moveable aero" Charlie used to make it up as he went along. But they can vent through the wheel in principle and that's why for 2022 fia have given up and put wheel covers over the whole issue

[Just_a_fan]

cos this is what they've had for the last 2 years, blowing through into the spokes, the green arrow and highlights
https://66.media.tumblr.com/f8b988992ca ... o1_540.jpg

Yeah, but different end of the car and for different reasons. The front axle blowing was solely for aero purposes with no excuses given about cooling etc. It was solely to do with tyre wake control. That was well known and then controlled before being banned. The rear wheel blowing was principally thermal control of the rear tyres. That wasn't banned.

I think the fronts were the same, before this, using the spare holes in the hub face to feed the wheel spokes. I can't find a photo tho, but i think this is quite likely legal, tho it is quite hard to guess as with "moveable aero" Charlie used to make it up as he went along. But they can vent through the wheel in principle and that's why for 2022 fia have given up and put wheel covers over the whole issue

That approach was specifically banned when the front blowing was banned. That's kind of how RedBull did it before they were forced to go to the legal (at the time), but less effective, blowing through a tube through the axle.

[izzy]

That approach was specifically banned when the front blowing was banned. That's kind of how RedBull did it before they were forced to go to the legal (at the time), but less effective, blowing through a tube through the axle.

mmmm, okay i see they banned air flowing within a 105mm diameter from the centre of rotation, i'm not sure that prevents them blowing the spokes. What diameter is an F1 front hub face? It's strangely hard to find the right photo of the fronts

[F1NAC]

According to technical regulations 5.3.8 all six mandatory M12 studs mounting gearbox to engine must be used. This while one F1 site this week was telling its followers that Mercedes uses only for mounting studs.

In technical regulations for 2020, they removed article 5.3.8

[henry]

According to technical regulations 5.3.8 all six mandatory M12 studs mounting gearbox to engine must be used. This while one F1 site this week was telling its followers that Mercedes uses only for mounting studs.

In technical regulations for 2020, they removed article 5.3.8

Not in my copy dated December 2019. Where do you get this information from?

[saviour stivala]

And neither in my copy of 11 November 2019.

[F1NAC]

According to technical regulations 5.3.8 all six mandatory M12 studs mounting gearbox to engine must be used. This while one F1 site this week was telling its followers that Mercedes uses only for mounting studs.

In technical regulations for 2020, they removed article 5.3.8

Not in my copy dated December 2019. Where do you get this information from?

Ooooops I just went to FIA site, and thought that the latest release is for 2020, didn't notice it was actually for 2022.

My Bad sorry

EDIT: now while I was checking, also (what could be worthy) for 2021 season they removed article 5.3.8

[Just_a_fan]

According to technical regulations 5.3.8 all six mandatory M12 studs mounting gearbox to engine must be used. This while one F1 site this week was telling its followers that Mercedes uses only for mounting studs.

It doesn't say that have to use six studs, but they may not use more than 6 studs. It doesn't say they have to use 6 studs, but all of the studs they do provide must be used. Hence Mercedes use 4 studs and use all of them and thus are in accordance with the regulations.

The key is it that the regs say "may only use six studs" but then "all studs must be used". It's subtle but important.

[saviour stivala]

According to technical regulations 5.3.8 all six mandatory M12 studs mounting gearbox to engine must be used. This while one F1 site this week was telling its followers that Mercedes uses only for mounting studs.

It doesn't say that have to use six studs, but they may not use more than 6 studs. It doesn't say they have to use 6 studs, but all of the studs they do provide must be used. Hence Mercedes use 4 studs and use all of them and thus are in accordance with the regulations.

The key is it that the regs say "may only use six studs" but then "all studs must be used". It's subtle but important.

The regs does not say "may only use six studs" they say ALL studs MUST be used. 5.3.8: "power unit mounting may only comprise six M12 studs for connection to survival cell and six M12 studs for connection to transmission. ALL studs MUST be used and may be fitted on the survival cell, power unit or transmission".

[saviour stivala]

Allegedly Ferrari and Red Bull have found out that Mercedes connects engine and transmission with only four studs, but still manages to make this connection torsionally stiff. Ferrari and Red Bull Honda need six studs. The consequence: The transmission is therefore built a bit wider. This could be an aerodynamic disadvantage. Both teams therefore want to build new transmissions for 2021.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ona-krise/

That part of the article by automotorsport (engine/transmission connection) is incorrect and misleading. First. Mercedes is not doing that at present (using 4 studs instead of 6), they can only do that from 2022. Secondly. From 2022 Using 4 or 6 studs as mandated/allowed in 2022 technical regulations (5.4. will not require a transmission redesign. The engine to bulkhead and transmission to engine mountings are standardised mountings, bolt/stud sizes and bolt/stud pattern dimensions. Which means any of the four present engines and any of the gearboxes in use can be mounted not only together but also to any of the cars in use (engine to bulkhead).