F1 current hybrid turbocharger actual weight

[theriusDR3]

I'm curious about the actual weight of F1 current hybrid turbocharger that usually mounted on current V6 hybrid power unit. Hybrid turbocharger and conventional turbo are bit different i believe.

[PlatinumZealot]

You can start with your own estimate since such information is obviously very secret.

Use a turbocharger of similar size.. say Garrett G42
Assume thinner walls and lighter materials to the compressor and turbine housings.
There is weight from the long shaft for Mercedes/Honda turbochargers.
Add the weight of a similar sized permanent magnet motor... and you should be in the ball park.

[saviour stivala]

Also assume a minimum weight of 4kg for MGU-H alone.

[godlameroso]

We can take a stab at it. The entire turbo MGU-H assembly minus pipes is probably ~20kg. 4 or 5kg for the MGU-H another 2 kg for shafts, bearings, fittings, lines, and seals. Another ~4kg for the compressor housing, ~6kg for the turbine housing. The rest miscellaneous stuff like turbine and compressor blades, actuators, etc.

[gruntguru]

If only it would work without all that "miscellaneous stuff".

[godlameroso]

Essential and miscellaneous, compressor wheel is probably less than 250 grams, turbine wheel a little heavier even if its a tad smaller.

Don't have the regs handy, are they allowed to use titanium for the compressor wheel? Or does it have to be an iron alloy?

*after looking, it seems the only restrictions for turbo wheels are that they not use ceramics or MMCs. There doesn't seem to be any other restrictions as far as turbo wheels are concerned.

[gruntguru]

So probably Ti for both.

[63l8qrrfy6]

The turbine wheel is certainly a nickel superalloy.
Le Mans diesels had to last just about as long as current F1 engines at similar EGTs (1000°C+) and they all had nickel turbine wheels.

[MHR650]

The vast majority of turbine wheels are made from Inconel, until you get above 1000C, there are a few alloys that allow higher temperatures but are heavier than Inconel. It is possible, if it is allowed by the rules, that they are using Titanium Aluminide turbine wheels, those have great temperature resistance and are very light, but are very difficult to work with.

No way they are using Titanium compressor wheels, we only use those on a few heavy-duty diesel applications where the durability improvements are worth the performance loss due to the higher weight. Compressor wheels are made from aluminum or possibly aluminum lithium alloys.

[Brian Coat]

Re TiAl See 5.17.1c

[Jolle]

Is weight really a problem for the current formula? I mean for the compressor wheel itself. The wheel probably has quite a steady RPM of 125.000 and spun up if asked for by a quite powerful electric motor. A few grams have almost no gain in performance while it becomes more durable.

[MarcJ]

The vast majority of turbine wheels are made from Inconel, until you get above 1000C, there are a few alloys that allow higher temperatures but are heavier than Inconel. It is possible, if it is allowed by the rules, that they are using Titanium Aluminide turbine wheels, those have great temperature resistance and are very light, but are very difficult to work with.

No way they are using Titanium compressor wheels, we only use those on a few heavy-duty diesel applications where the durability improvements are worth the performance loss due to the higher weight. Compressor wheels are made from aluminum or possibly aluminum lithium alloys.

I know one F1 team when in Melbourne this year received 3D printed Titanium+ parts from Titomic which is in Melbourne. There 3D printing process can lay up metals of differing melt temperatures and very low porosity 0.3% and fast @ 70kg Ti6AL4V an hour, including Inconel, copper, stainless, and metalised plastics if need be. Producing a very large rocket for GIlmore Space Systems in around a week. So the possibilities are now endless it's cheap as it uses irregular morphology powders which are about 1/5 the price.

[sosic2121]

Is weight really a problem for the current formula? I mean for the compressor wheel itself. The wheel probably has quite a steady RPM of 125.000 and spun up if asked for by a quite powerful electric motor. A few grams have almost no gain in performance while it becomes more durable.

I'm wondering the same.
Having turbo with higher inertia could be an advantage when bypassing 4/2MJ rules.

[Jolle]

Is weight really a problem for the current formula? I mean for the compressor wheel itself. The wheel probably has quite a steady RPM of 125.000 and spun up if asked for by a quite powerful electric motor. A few grams have almost no gain in performance while it becomes more durable.

I'm wondering the same.
Having turbo with higher inertia could be an advantage when bypassing 4/2MJ rules.

I don’t see much room to use the H as some kind of flywheel to store energy, as there is the limit of 125.000 rpm. The moment you want the K energised again, there is also air demand for the ICE.

I was thinking more in line of the 125.000 limit. If ICE designers choose to have a stable fuel/air mix above 10.500 rpm, the turbo should spin on a stable 125.000 rpm trough the whole powerband (of whatever speed the designers choose).

And if something is rotating on a stable speed, weight doesn’t matter.

[saviour stivala]

The minimum weight possible of any single part that makes-up the turbocharger (compressor and turbine) will be top priority design targets. As would be the design of the MGU-H (down to the permitted minimum weight by the rules). These design criteria will be driven by the ability to spool-up as fast as possible and the consideration of the mandated installation position of the turbocharger. The more weight acting like a ‘flywheel’ the more the spool-up time will be.