[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[NiyolHuayra]

The cause of Mclarens problems in Automotive is that they do not have even one single EV
They could have done an EV on their existing line with the expertise they had since the introduction of KERS in F1, but they have missed an opportunity to get ahead of others.

https://drivetribe.imgix.net/N907rUelQc ... crop=faces

I strongly disagree here mate, McLaren Automotive is an F1 derivative and so they use technology that eventually trickles down to cars. And they make use of this tech in P1 (Hybrid) and will for sure use it in future cars. Right now, battery technology is not good enough for them to change their entire production line and brand. It is easier for a company like Rimac to do so, because they make like 5 cars a year. Trend in automotive industry is also in the SUV market and the same can be said here. This is not in line with the brand. But when the battery technology becomes good enough, they will for sure make an electric car.

[FW17]

Battery technology was good enough when the model s was launched, which was before the Mclaren MP4-12c

At this moment Mclaren still has nothing in its pipeline. I dont think they will get any investor interested as they have nothing relevant for the future.

They missed the boat by not following on the heels of Porsche in 2015

What they needed was

[NiyolHuayra]

Battery technology was good enough when the model s was launched, which was before the Mclaren MP4-12c

At this moment Mclaren still has nothing in its pipeline. I dont think they will get any investor interested as they have nothing relevant for the future.

They missed the boat by not following on the heels of Porsche in 2015

What they needed was

https://images.hgmsites.net/hug/nio-ep9_100581864_h.jpg

Sorry but you are wrong, McLaren is not on the same level & market as Tesla, and nowhere near the size of Porsche (VW Group) which are only now releasing a full-on electric sports car. Why is Ferrari not making EVs or Lamborghini or Aston Martin all of these are bigger and have more recourses than McLaren? Forcing and wishing a company to go full electric is pure nonsense.
More car makers will jump to electric power when solid state batteries become mainstream.
They have a Hybrid Hypercar in the pipes.

[mwillems]

The cause of Mclarens problems in Automotive is that they do not have even one single EV
They could have done an EV on their existing line with the expertise they had since the introduction of KERS in F1, but they have missed an opportunity to get ahead of others.

https://drivetribe.imgix.net/N907rUelQc ... crop=faces

They had record sales last year, how is that the source of their problems? Their problem was a fair amount of debt and little leeway for the bottom to drop out of the market for half a year. Mclarens issue is not viability or products it is cashflow. That is it, all they need is money, they just don't want to sell the business to get it!

People will be buying petrol Mclarens until combustion cars are banned, same as other supercars. They will likely contrinue to produce highly sought after petrol track cars long after the road ban, for those that want the experience and want a peice of heritage to invest in.

In terms of powetrain, Mclaren can license an electric powertrain from another company later down the line and it will be relatively easy for them to do some development and create a fully electric car. Or Ricardo will recognise their time is numbered and already be working on electric engines.

The Tesla Model S P100D will run a 720s very closely, be much more efficient, practical etc The 720S is £80k more than the P100D..... and yet Mclarens sold in record numbers last year. Bet Teslas Model S waiting list is shorter than Mclarens too! EV has nothing to do with Mclarens issues and will have nothing to do with wether people want to invest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHgh4_1ksGQ

[mwillems]

It feels like the midfield is trying to find its way into the new wave of investors, with Racing Point/Aston Martin as an example.

Racing point kind of fell into it via the debacle surrounding Vijay Maliya that was ultimately forced by Sergio Perez.
The opportunity to buy Aston Martin was probably already on the cards when Stroll decided to buy Force India, I'm personally putting that down to serendipity and not through any desire of Maliya to let go of the team and look for investment. Through luck and strong business acumen Stroll made that happen, but I don't think it will happen too often like that. I'd be surprised if he doesn't want to emulate a little of what Mclaren had achieved, and I hope he does.

Williams also have had no choice but to sell, and it will be like a knife in the heart to Frank. But if Toto has invested then he will have done so with a plan, although it's hard to understand what it is with his links to Aston Martin.

It's possible I've misunderstood your use of the word "trying" and are in fact just suggesting that without realising, the whole midfield is having a subconscious need to change at once. In which case, yes, I agree!

Even Haas don't know if they can afford to go back racing.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... wSTEd.html

Trying as in finding new partners. Most of the midfield is still recovering after first the tobacco companies pulling out and later on the car manufacturers and the Saudi oil money. Williams for instance had all three as did Sauber and McLaren.

With no real new car manufacturers on the horizon to invest in a team (as in one of the big ones, not AM or McLaren itself), Saudi money running dry and tobacco not really an option anymore, people like Lance Stroll and Toto Wolff are investors they are trying to interest into F1.

Or, another big, almost tobacco like (marketing above product) company like RedBull or Heineken of course.

Sponsorship decline coupled with Spiralling costs of the sport. I do think that the upcoming budget cap will make F1 viable again and Mclaren can be a top team.

[Jackles-UK]

Going slightly off topic here but SUV’s and EV’s don’t fit the mould of McLaren, a team/brand that exists solely to go racing (very much like Ferrari). They have played around with hybrid systems in the P1 but only to improve the racing experience and chucking in an SUV to rival the likes of Lamborghini, Bentley, Porsche etc. (all of which are owned by gigantic manufacturers so have the capital and access to parts that McLaren don’t) isn’t something that I see as a worthwhile exercise.

From reading various reports it looks like the McLaren sale is still very much at a contextual stage; no final decision on pulling the trigger appears to have been made and nobody has yet been brought in to make it happen. This is in contrast to Williams who have already appointed someone to actively broker a deal. Who knows, maybe the Bahraini owners will look to increase their existing shares or provide additional temporary funding or a loan to see the team through this blip, I believe that has happened before?

[FW17]

The cause of Mclarens problems in Automotive is that they do not have even one single EV
They could have done an EV on their existing line with the expertise they had since the introduction of KERS in F1, but they have missed an opportunity to get ahead of others.

https://drivetribe.imgix.net/N907rUelQc ... crop=faces

They had record sales last year, how is that the source of their problems? Their problem was a fair amount of debt and little leeway for the bottom to drop out of the market for half a year. Mclarens issue is not viability or products it is cashflow. That is it, all they need is money, they just don't want to sell the business to get it!

People will be buying petrol Mclarens until combustion cars are banned, same as other supercars. They will likely contrinue to produce highly sought after petrol track cars long after the road ban, for those that want the experience and want a peice of heritage to invest in.

In terms of powetrain, Mclaren can license an electric powertrain from another company later down the line and it will be relatively easy for them to do some development and create a fully electric car. Or Ricardo will recognise their time is numbered and already be working on electric engines.

The Tesla Model S P100D will run a 720s very closely, be much more efficient, practical etc The 720S is £80k more than the P100D..... and yet Mclarens sold in record numbers last year. Bet Teslas Model S waiting list is shorter than Mclarens too! EV has nothing to do with Mclarens issues and will have nothing to do with wether people want to invest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHgh4_1ksGQ

You are mistaken, Mclaren was a new company that was raising money. It was easier as it was a leaner company with less debt and product portfolio in comparison to existing super car manufacturers and regular manufacturers.

Debt was taken to develop new product lines, and these product lines are a dead end sooner or later. At this moment they do not have an electric portfolio, neither will they be able to develop one as they do not have funds. finding investments is going to be difficult unless it is a govt. bailout.

[mwillems]

The cause of Mclarens problems in Automotive is that they do not have even one single EV
They could have done an EV on their existing line with the expertise they had since the introduction of KERS in F1, but they have missed an opportunity to get ahead of others.

https://drivetribe.imgix.net/N907rUelQc ... crop=faces

They had record sales last year, how is that the source of their problems? Their problem was a fair amount of debt and little leeway for the bottom to drop out of the market for half a year. Mclarens issue is not viability or products it is cashflow. That is it, all they need is money, they just don't want to sell the business to get it!

People will be buying petrol Mclarens until combustion cars are banned, same as other supercars. They will likely contrinue to produce highly sought after petrol track cars long after the road ban, for those that want the experience and want a peice of heritage to invest in.

In terms of powetrain, Mclaren can license an electric powertrain from another company later down the line and it will be relatively easy for them to do some development and create a fully electric car. Or Ricardo will recognise their time is numbered and already be working on electric engines.

The Tesla Model S P100D will run a 720s very closely, be much more efficient, practical etc The 720S is £80k more than the P100D..... and yet Mclarens sold in record numbers last year. Bet Teslas Model S waiting list is shorter than Mclarens too! EV has nothing to do with Mclarens issues and will have nothing to do with wether people want to invest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHgh4_1ksGQ

You are mistaken, Mclaren was a new company that was raising money. It was easier as it was a leaner company with less debt and product portfolio in comparison to existing super car manufacturers and regular manufacturers.

Debt was taken to develop new product lines, and these product lines are a dead end sooner or later. At this moment they do not have an electric portfolio, neither will they be able to develop one as they do not have funds. finding investments is going to be difficult unless it is a govt. bailout.

Mistaken about what in particular?
Do you mean the powertrain? No they don't have an electric portfolio, my point was I doubt it will affect them massively for a few years, people aren't buying Mclarens for electric, they are pure race cars. The Tesla S has been around long enough to compete with supercars and Mclarens business was booming anyway. I understand the markets will eventually move solely to EV, but I see no evidence that Mclaren have been impacted by that in any way up to now and I don't think they will in the near future.

If it is the investment, do me a favour and clarify where I am wrong, as I am perhaps being a bit stupid. You simply think I am wrong that they will get investment/buyers?

[Jolle]

They had record sales last year, how is that the source of their problems? Their problem was a fair amount of debt and little leeway for the bottom to drop out of the market for half a year. Mclarens issue is not viability or products it is cashflow. That is it, all they need is money, they just don't want to sell the business to get it!

People will be buying petrol Mclarens until combustion cars are banned, same as other supercars. They will likely contrinue to produce highly sought after petrol track cars long after the road ban, for those that want the experience and want a peice of heritage to invest in.

In terms of powetrain, Mclaren can license an electric powertrain from another company later down the line and it will be relatively easy for them to do some development and create a fully electric car. Or Ricardo will recognise their time is numbered and already be working on electric engines.

The Tesla Model S P100D will run a 720s very closely, be much more efficient, practical etc The 720S is £80k more than the P100D..... and yet Mclarens sold in record numbers last year. Bet Teslas Model S waiting list is shorter than Mclarens too! EV has nothing to do with Mclarens issues and will have nothing to do with wether people want to invest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHgh4_1ksGQ

You are mistaken, Mclaren was a new company that was raising money. It was easier as it was a leaner company with less debt and product portfolio in comparison to existing super car manufacturers and regular manufacturers.

Debt was taken to develop new product lines, and these product lines are a dead end sooner or later. At this moment they do not have an electric portfolio, neither will they be able to develop one as they do not have funds. finding investments is going to be difficult unless it is a govt. bailout.

Mistaken about what in particular?
Do you mean the powertrain? No they don't have an electric portfolio, my point was I doubt it will affect them massively for a few years, people aren't buying Mclarens for electric, they are pure race cars. The Tesla S has been around long enough to compete with supercars and Mclarens business was booming anyway. I understand the markets will eventually move solely to EV, but I see no evidence that Mclaren have been impacted by that in any way up to now and I don't think they will in the near future.

If it is the investment, do me a favour and clarify where I am wrong, as I am perhaps being a bit stupid. You simply think I am wrong that they will get investment/buyers?

McLaren and Tesla both make cars and are relative young companies. The comparison stops there. Where Tesla is competing with Audi, BMW, VW, Lexus, etc etc, McLaren is in the Lambo and Ferrari realm.

Compared to Lambo and Ferrari, a McLaren has a couple of problems. Their whole portfolio is build around one big investment: the Nissan V8 and the carbon tub. Somewhere soon they need a big investment to renew those two pillars. Lamborghini and Ferrari are of course part of bigger automotive companies (VW and FCA), not only makes this development cheaper, the use of developed parts shared with more cars (and make the development cost per unit lower) but also have a secondary use as the brands halo products. FCO or VW AG wouldn’t worry to much if Ferrari or Lamborghini don’t make so much money a few years, while a company like McLaren is in trouble right away.

So. For instance, the twin turbo V8, how long before their competition comes with their next gen and does McLaren have enough resources to counter this? At the moment a TT V8 of around 3.8 -4.0 is the gold standard, but for how long?

[Lucky]

[Macklaren]

https://twitter.com/wearetherace/status ... 69408?s=19

This is very encouraging...
[Seidl] added: “That is still working from home in order to make sure we keep going and we try to beat the competition on the development side. I’m happy with what I’m seeing there.”

[FW17]

Mistaken about what in particular?
Do you mean the powertrain? No they don't have an electric portfolio, my point was I doubt it will affect them massively for a few years, people aren't buying Mclarens for electric, they are pure race cars. The Tesla S has been around long enough to compete with supercars and Mclarens business was booming anyway. I understand the markets will eventually move solely to EV, but I see no evidence that Mclaren have been impacted by that in any way up to now and I don't think they will in the near future.

If it is the investment, do me a favour and clarify where I am wrong, as I am perhaps being a bit stupid. You simply think I am wrong that they will get investment/buyers?

Mclaren are booming? they have not been around for long enough to be considered as booming.

They are still in their initial stages, their revenue does not cover repayment and new product development, it is an either or. They had their chance to have diversified their development but they put all their eggs in one basket. The business decision is to adapt to the future and not talk about heritage and tradition.

leadership over the last 5 years have been to be a disrupter or you don't survive.

[mwillems]

Mistaken about what in particular?
Do you mean the powertrain? No they don't have an electric portfolio, my point was I doubt it will affect them massively for a few years, people aren't buying Mclarens for electric, they are pure race cars. The Tesla S has been around long enough to compete with supercars and Mclarens business was booming anyway. I understand the markets will eventually move solely to EV, but I see no evidence that Mclaren have been impacted by that in any way up to now and I don't think they will in the near future.

If it is the investment, do me a favour and clarify where I am wrong, as I am perhaps being a bit stupid. You simply think I am wrong that they will get investment/buyers?

Mclaren are booming? they have not been around for long enough to be considered as booming.

They are still in their initial stages, their revenue does not cover repayment and new product development, it is an either or. They had their chance to have diversified their development but they put all their eggs in one basket. The business decision is to adapt to the future and not talk about heritage and tradition.

leadership over the last 5 years have been to be a disrupter or you don't survive.

I'm referring to sales, not the profitability of the company, production and sales have ramped up massively. I'm specifically talking about demand for Mclaren cars and Mclarens aggressive strategy to provide more cars. I think I did state that it has cost them a lot of money do so and left them in a precarious position and vulnerable to a downturn such as this. EV or no EV I don't think will make a difference right now Mclaren.

[mwillems]

You are mistaken, Mclaren was a new company that was raising money. It was easier as it was a leaner company with less debt and product portfolio in comparison to existing super car manufacturers and regular manufacturers.

Debt was taken to develop new product lines, and these product lines are a dead end sooner or later. At this moment they do not have an electric portfolio, neither will they be able to develop one as they do not have funds. finding investments is going to be difficult unless it is a govt. bailout.

Mistaken about what in particular?
Do you mean the powertrain? No they don't have an electric portfolio, my point was I doubt it will affect them massively for a few years, people aren't buying Mclarens for electric, they are pure race cars. The Tesla S has been around long enough to compete with supercars and Mclarens business was booming anyway. I understand the markets will eventually move solely to EV, but I see no evidence that Mclaren have been impacted by that in any way up to now and I don't think they will in the near future.

If it is the investment, do me a favour and clarify where I am wrong, as I am perhaps being a bit stupid. You simply think I am wrong that they will get investment/buyers?

McLaren and Tesla both make cars and are relative young companies. The comparison stops there. Where Tesla is competing with Audi, BMW, VW, Lexus, etc etc, McLaren is in the Lambo and Ferrari realm.

Compared to Lambo and Ferrari, a McLaren has a couple of problems. Their whole portfolio is build around one big investment: the Nissan V8 and the carbon tub. Somewhere soon they need a big investment to renew those two pillars. Lamborghini and Ferrari are of course part of bigger automotive companies (VW and FCA), not only makes this development cheaper, the use of developed parts shared with more cars (and make the development cost per unit lower) but also have a secondary use as the brands halo products. FCO or VW AG wouldn’t worry to much if Ferrari or Lamborghini don’t make so much money a few years, while a company like McLaren is in trouble right away.

So. For instance, the twin turbo V8, how long before their competition comes with their next gen and does McLaren have enough resources to counter this? At the moment a TT V8 of around 3.8 -4.0 is the gold standard, but for how long?

But that's my point, Tesla are not a competitor to Mclaren and there isn't much else around to compete, Ferrari has a plug in but then so does Mclaren, with another plug in hybrid on the way.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... n-bodywork

My point, badly written probably, was that if you want speedy electric then it is here, and it isn't affecting Mclaren.
In terms of Hybrid, we are already there and going to plug in very soon. We don't need a fully EV car right now, it's just not necessary.

[Jolle]

Mistaken about what in particular?
Do you mean the powertrain? No they don't have an electric portfolio, my point was I doubt it will affect them massively for a few years, people aren't buying Mclarens for electric, they are pure race cars. The Tesla S has been around long enough to compete with supercars and Mclarens business was booming anyway. I understand the markets will eventually move solely to EV, but I see no evidence that Mclaren have been impacted by that in any way up to now and I don't think they will in the near future.

If it is the investment, do me a favour and clarify where I am wrong, as I am perhaps being a bit stupid. You simply think I am wrong that they will get investment/buyers?

McLaren and Tesla both make cars and are relative young companies. The comparison stops there. Where Tesla is competing with Audi, BMW, VW, Lexus, etc etc, McLaren is in the Lambo and Ferrari realm.

Compared to Lambo and Ferrari, a McLaren has a couple of problems. Their whole portfolio is build around one big investment: the Nissan V8 and the carbon tub. Somewhere soon they need a big investment to renew those two pillars. Lamborghini and Ferrari are of course part of bigger automotive companies (VW and FCA), not only makes this development cheaper, the use of developed parts shared with more cars (and make the development cost per unit lower) but also have a secondary use as the brands halo products. FCO or VW AG wouldn’t worry to much if Ferrari or Lamborghini don’t make so much money a few years, while a company like McLaren is in trouble right away.

So. For instance, the twin turbo V8, how long before their competition comes with their next gen and does McLaren have enough resources to counter this? At the moment a TT V8 of around 3.8 -4.0 is the gold standard, but for how long?

But that's my point, Tesla are not a competitor to Mclaren and there isn't much else around to compete, Ferrari has a plug in but then so does Mclaren, with another plug in hybrid on the way.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new- ... n-bodywork

My point, badly written probably, was that if you want speedy electric then it is here, and it isn't affecting Mclaren.
In terms of Hybrid, we are already there and going to plug in very soon. We don't need a fully EV car right now, it's just not necessary.

You don’t need one now but you do need to invest now in the next gen of power plant to be ready when you need it, else you’re going to be caught out.

This investments will take millions if not billions. Look at how VW AG is taking these steps with the VW ID and the new Porsche. This means they will have a platform ready for Lambo when the market demands it. AMG is busy incorporating new tech in their engines and so on.

In the short term McLaren portfolio is safe, but for the long term they need a drivetrain partner to replace their ageing Nissan V8