Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Bill]

Introducing one change per year doesn't reduce costs because a manufacturer has liberty to focus on all areas. The token system was clever in the sense that it will force a manu to focus on key area that they think they can improve performance.Today pu are still new and novel to warrant a new pu in 2025 maybe they can tweak the regulations and include things like valve timing or some exotic spark plugs that use plasma

[bigblue]

Freezing the engines is a very bad idea from the perspective of sport, and from general Honda philosophy (which has always been to develop and innovate). Who wants to be stuck with what they've got with no ability to improve - that's not sport. The limited amount of changes is obviously a half-way house, though would be awful for any new entrant. Having said that, there will be no new entrants for the forseeable future, and there's the minor point of the financial situation. So, whilst there are sporting reasons not to do this, the financial situation probably means something has to be done. No good answers ?

[PlatinumZealot]

Huh? I didn't know you are a master of spin too.

Ghost, you have failed to bring supporting evidence or solid engineering theory to back-up your claims even after a barrage of evidence countering your arguments. You have floundered in posts dragging out the conversations to no avail. Therfore I have seen enough to surmise that Honda's MGUH is 99% likely to be clutchless until anyone else can convince me otherwise.

I wish you could see your reflection, Ghost.

So you're saying unless I bring you a photo or indeed an in the metal MGU-H from a current F1 power unit, your Garrett electric road car turbo must be correct? That's a little self important of you.

The fact of the matter is you're guessing just as much as I am. The difference being you think they won't bother, I assume they will look for gains anywhere at this point

The one who has floundered is you that consistently sidesteps every question I've asked. You're whole argument is literally "this road car Garrett turbo I found online doesn't have a clutch, so clearly, F1 doesnt".... Seriously??

I've not once claimed I have conclusive evidence, I rather harmlessly suggested in theory there could be a benefit if they get it right. But now, I almost feel like you've got a bet going to put Garrett in every single reply, and on that ... please for the love of God, don't send me to the Garrett website again.

I answered your questions in the science articles linked. I cant win with you unless a photo of an F1 MGUH is sliced inbhalf emerges on the internet. Or maybe Yamamoto himself answers if there is a clutch.

Anyway. I am satifsified in myself that there is no clutch.

garrett would have leverage experience and investments in F1 to use a similar system for the production car applications. I doubt the technology would be far off.

2015 Garrett and Ferrari
https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/medi ... formula-1/

2019 technology to be applied to road cars in 2021

https://www.designnews.com/automotive-0 ... 2715061742

Just some Interesting notes from the articles:

Tip speeds approaching 600m/s. You can estimate a range of turbine RPMs from this.

E-turbos can be 15% larger than conventional turbos.

Late arrival of 48Volts production cars caused late introduction of E-turbos.

Honda is interesting because we dont know how much of their turbocharger is IHI..
The same for Mercedes and (mitsubishi? Borgwarner?)

Borg warner

https://youtu.be/8OwswYe69_E

Ghost look what came out in the news today .

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... s/4808159/

[saviour stivala]

‘you failed to bring supporting evidence or solid engineering theory to back your claims’. But you certainly did by pushing on here a lot that is non F1. Maybe that is why you have that one percent still missing from being sure.

[rgava]

Ghost look what came out in the news today .

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... s/4808159/

I don't agree with the title of the article.

Mercedes will use the electrically assisted turbo from Garret into a production car.

This is only a small fraction of the MGU-H Formula one technology, only it's anti-lag feature, but no energy recovery at all.

Sorry for the off-topic. Moderators, I propose to move this to a new thread about e-turbos in street cars.

[godlameroso]

The MGU-H would be nearly useless from an energy recovery perspective in a road car. It works in F1 because high rate of WOT running. Where the MGU-H does the bulk of it's harvesting. When a car is cruising on the highway it's building very little boost pressure, you have to load that crank. Spooling takes relatively little energy, you don't need to provide full boost pressure like the F1 MGU-H can, you just need to give the turbo a kickstart, that alone will reduce turbo lag and improve response. The only other time the MGU-H could realistically harvest is to throttle boost pressure, although that could improve the efficiency of the bypass valve.

[PlatinumZealot]

Ghost look what came out in the news today .

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... s/4808159/

I don't agree with the title of the article.

Mercedes will use the electrically assisted turbo from Garret into a production car.

This is only a small fraction of the MGU-H Formula one technology, only it's anti-lag feature, but no energy recovery at all.

Sorry for the off-topic. Moderators, I propose to move this to a new thread about e-turbos in street cars.

This is one step, but the electric machine is still in place.
As stated above by Godlamerose, not enough WOT conditions to get a consistent charging to the battery. But do not rule it out. Company like BMW have done a lot of minor forms of energy recovery for marketing purposes! Front grilles that close to help aero, brake energy recover to charge a normal lead acid battery, and other minor stuff. So let's not rule it out yet. Slight over-boost conditions could be diverted to energy store for said same marketing gimmicks.

[etusch]

Honda account takes questions to Tanabe-san

[GhostF1]

So you're saying unless I bring you a photo or indeed an in the metal MGU-H from a current F1 power unit, your Garrett electric road car turbo must be correct? That's a little self important of you.

The fact of the matter is you're guessing just as much as I am. The difference being you think they won't bother, I assume they will look for gains anywhere at this point

The one who has floundered is you that consistently sidesteps every question I've asked. You're whole argument is literally "this road car Garrett turbo I found online doesn't have a clutch, so clearly, F1 doesnt".... Seriously??

I've not once claimed I have conclusive evidence, I rather harmlessly suggested in theory there could be a benefit if they get it right. But now, I almost feel like you've got a bet going to put Garrett in every single reply, and on that ... please for the love of God, don't send me to the Garrett website again.

I answered your questions in the science articles linked. I cant win with you unless a photo of an F1 MGUH is sliced inbhalf emerges on the internet. Or maybe Yamamoto himself answers if there is a clutch.

Anyway. I am satifsified in myself that there is no clutch.

garrett would have leverage experience and investments in F1 to use a similar system for the production car applications. I doubt the technology would be far off.

2015 Garrett and Ferrari
https://www.garrettmotion.com/news/medi ... formula-1/

2019 technology to be applied to road cars in 2021

https://www.designnews.com/automotive-0 ... 2715061742

Just some Interesting notes from the articles:

Tip speeds approaching 600m/s. You can estimate a range of turbine RPMs from this.

E-turbos can be 15% larger than conventional turbos.

Late arrival of 48Volts production cars caused late introduction of E-turbos.

Honda is interesting because we dont know how much of their turbocharger is IHI..
The same for Mercedes and (mitsubishi? Borgwarner?)

Borg warner

https://youtu.be/8OwswYe69_E

Ghost look what came out in the news today .

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... s/4808159/

Haha hello my old friend!
I'm glad you felt the need to drag this up.

Agree with rgava, I take issue with the title. It has nothing to do with what is actually used in the F1 power unit. This article just demonstrates Mercedes is putting a known road car electric turbo.. in a road car? So I'm lost as to what you think this proves in regards to an F1 Power Unit..
We know of the existence of electric turbos for road cars, we know they are already used in road cars (see Audi SQ8). My argument is and has always has been it's short sighted and too uninformed to claim with certainty they just slapped a Garrett road turbo on an F1 engine and called it a day.

[gruntguru]

Fluffy piece on Garrett - Mercedes partnership. Some errors relating to harvesting. 48V vehicle electrics required.

https://newatlas.com/automotive/mercede ... e-90270322

[PlatinumZealot]

Haha hello my old friend!
I'm glad you felt the need to drag this up.

Agree with rgava, I take issue with the title. It has nothing to do with what is actually used in the F1 power unit. This article just demonstrates Mercedes is putting a known road car electric turbo.. in a road car? So I'm lost as to what you think this proves in regards to an F1 Power Unit..
We know of the existence of electric turbos for road cars, we know they are already used in road cars (see Audi SQ8). My argument is and has always has been it's short sighted and too uninformed to claim with certainty they just slapped a Garrett road turbo on an F1 engine and called it a day.

I think you mean electric superchargers. Mercedes has an SUV with one too. But this new device as you can see is not an electric supercharger but a turbo with an electric machine in the middle. Time will tell with they ever use it for energy recovery. But we know that Garrett has been running them in the lab.

[gruntguru]

Regarding recovery - the Garrett E-turbo does use the MGU for recovery. I imagine it recovers enough energy to provide the spooling (motoring) function when required but not much beyond that. It might reduce the load on the vehicle alternator and save some fuel. I guess they could be using a "mild hybrid" alternator which would then provide some degree of turbo-compounding during sustained heavy load operation.

[Snorked]

Honda held an online press conference for only Japanese media? Needs a proper translation, but for now Google:

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/593688?all

For the opening of July, Asaki revealed that the performance is expected to increase by about one third of the year compared to the power unit "Spec 1" at the time of the opening game in March.

Also has GPS telemetry image for the Gasly / Hamilton drag race.

[lio007]

Thanks to muramasa at Autosport_Forum:

What Asaki means is that, so every year you draw development plan for the year and proceed/execute according to the plan, and the original development plan for this year was spec 1 at OZ, spec 2 at around now, spec 3 sometime later, but due to factory close down they could not complete spec 2 in time for Austria unfortunately, so they will start and fight this season with what they call spec 1.1, which is about kinda like bug fix in terms of (rough) image. In terms of performance gain for spec 1.1, so there is the margin/amount of power gain that was originally expected/planned to be made/put during/throughout this year between spec 1 and 3, and of course they were not able to implement all of this planned gain into spec 1.1, but they assume that about 1/3 of this power gain was made with spec 1.1.

btw those translations are not good, and the second one is just DeepL. As soon as I started reading I smelled DeepL, then threw the original text into DeepL and it was actually DeepL. The problem with recent machine translation is that they construct English sentences that make sense as English but often very different and distorted nuances and even whole meaning from the original text, but how can you know that if you dont understand Japanese? That's the issue. I see many people saying how awesome DeepL is but it's actually scary.

So regarding the nuance, they are ambitious and setting championship as a target, but not bullish, not optimistic at all, but they are being cautious and humble with half anxiety half anticipation and recognizing that opponents will be strong and it will be very tough and difficult target. They have anxiety about whether the update will work or not, reliability is there or not, how much gain opponents PUs will actually make (they set development plan by estimating degree of improvement rivals would make but what if rivals gains exceeded their estimation big time?), etc etc, but they've got to do it so go for it. So just saying current state, realistic prospect, being sincere and having challenging spirit. Those subtle but crucial nuances are just gone or even just not correct with those translations.

[Snorked]

That online press briefing had a new GPS power trace





More images and transcript - https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1261006.html