PIRELLI 2020/2021 Tyre Thread

[Just_a_fan]

Having followed modern hatches on ultra low profile tyres, the "handling precision" is used to avoid pot holes and other imperfections. It certainly isn't needed to drive along public roads at even dangerously high speeds.

My 2.5 tonne SUV on 19 inch, 55 profile tyres, will hustle down a road at indecent speed and a lovely ride.

Civic Type R handles the rather bumpy Nordschleife public toll road just fine: https://youtu.be/QYV3yWshHLI?t=109 Hustling comfortably at 245 km/hr, and easily taking sweepers at 185 km/hr.

Does your SUV really provide the same level of enjoyable handling precision in either 185 km/hr sweepers, 60 km/hr hairpins and everything in between, as afforded by the 35 profile tyres?

I made the mistake myself of replacing the factory 225/40 R18 tyres on factory 18x7.5" rims of an earlier model Civic Type R, with 225/50 R16 tyres on Mazda RX7 16x8" rims thinking the smoother ride of the 50 profile tyres would have no handling drawbacks.

I was sadly mistaken, as it was very much like driving on balloons. The high profile tyres produced a lot of unwanted movement and even increased body roll, as the tyres contribute to the overall spring rate. The 16" wheels had to go, as this was totally unacceptable.

Where do you do 185km/h (115mph) on public roads? Just want to make sure I'm nowhere near you...

My SUV gives me handling that is entirely suitable for public roads, particularly as most of the time one is in traffic on poorly surfaced tarmac. The ride/handling balance is excellent. That t also works well when off road or towing is a bonus too.

I've been in and driven cars on public roads on ultra low profile tyres. Generally, it's an unpleasant experience. On the odd occasion that one finds smooth tarmac with no traffic on it, they can give a few moments of silly fun, but the speeds are generally very much in licence losing territory before the supposed benefits of the "precision handling" can be felt.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting old...

[JordanMugen]

Where do you do 185km/h (115mph) on public roads?

My SUV gives me handling that is entirely suitable for public roads, particularly as most of the time one is in traffic on poorly surfaced tarmac.

Never 185 km/hr. However there are plenty of 50-100 km/hr bends in the countryside in the mountains, where precise handling is preferred. Hairpin bends in particular are taken well below the speed limit of either 80, 90 or 100 km/hr. Nothing worse than a vague front end and/or excessive bodyroll IMO.

If I require a luxury car for transporting people, luggage, dogs etc, I will acquire one. I would quite like a large wagon with a manual transmission.

[MtthsMlw]

185km/h? These are rookie numbers

[JordanMugen]

185km/h? These are rookie numbers

That's the Civic Type R's *cornering* speed.

The low profile tyres appear to help with handling precision.

.... Thoughts on the news the 2021 18” tyres are based on the rejected 13” 2020 prototypes??

[ENGINE TUNER]

Pirelli looking to scrap team selection of tires and give everyone the same number of each compounds.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pire ... s/4793509/


Seems reasonable given that there may possibly be a race each weekend

[Just_a_fan]

I'd like the whole tyre system changed. Go away from the teams deciding what they'd like. Just have Pirelli bring two tyres, both of which must be used in the race. If Pirelli want to bring the hard and the rock-hard to Monaco, so be it, likewise if they want to bring the "marshmallow" and the "melted marshmallow" to Silverstone.

I'd almost go so far as to say there is one tyre compound for each race. Pirelli bring what they think will need two stops to do a race distance, but which might just be made to do one stop if you're careful. The teams can then decide whether they want to risk long stinting to avoid a second stop. Think 2019 Hungary.

Give fastest lap points to anyone who goes fastest, not just the guys already in the points. That would encourage the guys at the back to have a play with an extra stop to gain a point. Should lead to some entertainment towards the end of the race.

[Big Tea]

What many 'boy racers' (and I am not including anyone here of course,) do not seem to realise is that no matter how much 'better' a type of tyre is it makes no difference if it is not in contact with the surface. How often do we see a 'boy racer' of any gender with stiff suspension and tyres the thickness of paint cornering with most of the rubber wasted.

[ENGINE TUNER]

I'd like the whole tyre system changed. Go away from the teams deciding what they'd like. Just have Pirelli bring two tyres, both of which must be used in the race. If Pirelli want to bring the hard and the rock-hard to Monaco, so be it, likewise if they want to bring the "marshmallow" and the "melted marshmallow" to Silverstone.

I'd almost go so far as to say there is one tyre compound for each race. Pirelli bring what they think will need two stops to do a race distance, but which might just be made to do one stop if you're careful. The teams can then decide whether they want to risk long stinting to avoid a second stop. Think 2019 Hungary.

Give fastest lap points to anyone who goes fastest, not just the guys already in the points. That would encourage the guys at the back to have a play with an extra stop to gain a point. Should lead to some entertainment towards the end of the race.

Your first paragraph is basically the system in place when Bridgestone were the spec provider... 2007-10. The tire provider will choose the compounds which best suits the track and weather conditions within the 5 that they homologate at the beginning of the season.

Currently, the teams only get to choose how many of each compound of the 3 pre selected compounds by pirelli, so really not much different than what you proposed. The problem remains that the pirelli tires can not be pushed hard, which makes conserving both tires and thus fuel the "best" strategy to maximize position.

[Ringleheim]

F1 just needs tyres that can be pushed for their entire stint, and which don't benefit or hamper any team. The tyres shouldn't decide the outcome, in other words.

F1 really needs to move on from Pirelli if at all possible. They have really cast a shadow over the sport since they became the sole tire supplier.

Bring back Bridgestone!

[diffuser]

I'd like the whole tyre system changed. Go away from the teams deciding what they'd like. Just have Pirelli bring two tyres, both of which must be used in the race. If Pirelli want to bring the hard and the rock-hard to Monaco, so be it, likewise if they want to bring the "marshmallow" and the "melted marshmallow" to Silverstone.

I'd almost go so far as to say there is one tyre compound for each race. Pirelli bring what they think will need two stops to do a race distance, but which might just be made to do one stop if you're careful. The teams can then decide whether they want to risk long stinting to avoid a second stop. Think 2019 Hungary.

Give fastest lap points to anyone who goes fastest, not just the guys already in the points. That would encourage the guys at the back to have a play with an extra stop to gain a point. Should lead to some entertainment towards the end of the race.

The tire reg changes are cause they will not have the time to prep in advance. So it's a one off for this year.

Think you would get complaints from teams that Pirelli Is favoring one team over an other, like it is often when they change compounds. Allowing teams to choose, removes the anyone to blame.

Hungry it's almost impossible to pass.

I think the fast lap thing is almost gimmicky. Giving points for the fastest of the slowest is almost ironic. Plus those lower teams have alot of new tires, so they can have several runs at it. It could cause havok.

Plus what happens if the second RBR Is out of the points can it qualify for the fastest of the out of pointers?

[JordanMugen]

What many 'boy racers' (and I am not including anyone here of course,) do not seem to realise is that no matter how much 'better' a type of tyre is it makes no difference if it is not in contact with the surface. How often do we see a 'boy racer' of any gender with stiff suspension and tyres the thickness of paint cornering with most of the rubber wasted.

Hoppiness doesn't necessarily mean slower in a FWD though...


Tiff notes that hopping is a desired characteristic in a FWD to get the response from the front end:

The Cavalier race car @ 5:27, just like the above Fiesta road car, is prone to completely unloading the inner rear tyre (with sidewall "the thickness of paint") while cornering, but this doesn't seem to reduce cornering potential (obviously the Vauxhall race team engineers are not stupid, and would not set the Cavalier up in such a way that makes it go slower!).

Your principle is correct, over stiff for a bumpy road doesn't work, but it may not be as simple as softer = more grip = faster corner speed and/or quicker response rate, the latter part may not be the case.

[Obviously the Fiesta above is a fairly basic road car too... With MacPherson strut front and torsion beam rear, the geometry in terms of camber and so on is going to become quite poor if the suspension is allowed to compress a lot. Unfortunately a high spring rate is often the "crutch" used to overcome the undesirable characteristics of MacPherson strut layouts... simply by not allowing the wheel to travel a lot and to get much away from the ideal camber settings that were set in static conditions.]

[I presume the Vauxhall Cavalier has a strut rather than double wishbone front end as well, which could explain why the Vauxhall race team engineers have set it up how they have: very stiff.]

[Big Tea]

What many 'boy racers' (and I am not including anyone here of course,) do not seem to realise is that no matter how much 'better' a type of tyre is it makes no difference if it is not in contact with the surface. How often do we see a 'boy racer' of any gender with stiff suspension and tyres the thickness of paint cornering with most of the rubber wasted.

Hoppiness doesn't necessarily mean slower in a FWD though...
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2IUrFAo6fBM/maxresdefault.jpg

Tiff notes that hopping is a desired characteristic in a FWD to get the response from the front end:

The Cavalier race car @ 5:27, just like the above Fiesta road car, is prone to completely unloading the inner rear tyre (with sidewall "the thickness of paint") while cornering, but this doesn't seem to reduce cornering potential (obviously the Vauxhall race team engineers are not stupid, and would not set the Cavalier up in such a way that makes it go slower!).

Your principle is correct, over stiff for a bumpy road doesn't work, but it may not be as simple as softer = more grip = faster corner speed and/or quicker response rate, the latter part may not be the case.

[Obviously the Fiesta above is a fairly basic road car too... With MacPherson strut front and torsion beam rear, the geometry in terms of camber and so on is going to become quite poor if the suspension is allowed to compress a lot. Unfortunately a high spring rate is often the "crutch" used to overcome the undesirable characteristics of MacPherson strut layouts... simply by not allowing the wheel to travel a lot and to get much away from the ideal camber settings that were set in static conditions.]

[I presume the Vauxhall Cavalier has a strut rather than double wishbone front end as well, which could explain why the Vauxhall race team engineers have set it up how they have: very stiff.]

Nice, there are always exceptions
In a road car, even a 4x4, that would be missing not only grip, but drive from that wheel would it not?
For fractions the weight thrown forward nsf may outweigh a whole wheels worth, but would it overall?