[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Sieper]

@etusch, maybe, but certainly not for Lewis who was simply managing the gap at 5 seconds. No need for high power modes. Possibly for Bottas.

[Bill]

It's easy to know who runs out ers power early by looking at red light at back of car it's a feature that was introduced with new pu in 2014 you don't need "except " opinion to make any assessment.maybe is time Honda push that pu they were talks of 50000 km on dyno the realibility is there.last it took them until Austria to do that.

[etusch]

@etusch, maybe, but certainly not for Lewis who was simply managing the gap at 5 seconds. No need for high power modes. Possibly for Bottas.

I want to say that, for example, most used mode during racing, maybe Mercedes will set it for example 750 hp in a normal long season but now the season is shorter and they set that mode 800 hp and same mode of honda is still 740 hp. I use this numbers just as example.

[etusch]

It's easy to know who runs out ers power early by looking at red light at back of car it's a feature that was introduced with new pu in 2014 you don't need "except " opinion to make any assessment.maybe is time Honda push that pu they were talks of 50000 km on dyno the realibility is there.last it took them until Austria to do that.

If someone saying that just for watching one straight, big probibly he despiritly needs something to say or write. But if he says that by observing at least a few laps, observing every moment of every lap, he can calculate or estimate who uses it more than other. Then it make a bit sense but still just estimation.

[Jaisonas]

Im not exactly sure why people are surprised or even mad that Honda's weak spot is ERS management. This has been apparent since day one they came back to sport and it still is considering all of their focus is shifted in internal combustion concepts and efficient turbos. They're trying to compensate with aggressive engine mappings etc but on the tracks where battery matters , honda always was on the back foot. This is especially compared to Merc and Renault

[Jolle]

I wonder, could it be that the Honda ICE is still so "jumpy" that they need more electrical support to smooth it out compared to (especially) mercedes?

[etusch]

Im not exactly sure why people are surprised or even mad that Honda's weak spot is ERS management. This has been apparent since day one they came back to sport and it still is considering all of their focus is shifted in internal combustion concepts and efficient turbos. They're trying to compensate with aggressive engine mappings etc but on the tracks where battery matters , honda always was on the back foot. This is especially compared to Merc and Renault

Yea I also think their most deficit is there. But before we got a conclusion I think we have to see one or 2 low altitude track. Mercedes specially worked for high and Honda for low altitude.

[nzjrs]

Im not exactly sure why people are surprised or even mad that Honda's weak spot is ERS management. This has been apparent since day one they came back to sport and it still is considering all of their focus is shifted in internal combustion concepts and efficient turbos. They're trying to compensate with aggressive engine mappings etc but on the tracks where battery matters , honda always was on the back foot. This is especially compared to Merc and Renault

I'm confused, what do you mean here by ERS management and what do you think others mean when they say (for example) run out of ERS on the straight?

Combustion is and always has been the limiting step here - it is the source of energy in the system. If an article says Honda was running out of ERS on the straight does not in my opinion say anything meaningful about 'ERS management'.

[Jaisonas]

Im not exactly sure why people are surprised or even mad that Honda's weak spot is ERS management. This has been apparent since day one they came back to sport and it still is considering all of their focus is shifted in internal combustion concepts and efficient turbos. They're trying to compensate with aggressive engine mappings etc but on the tracks where battery matters , honda always was on the back foot. This is especially compared to Merc and Renault

I'm confused, what do you mean here by ERS management and what do you think others mean when they say (for example) run out of ERS on the straight?

Combustion is and always has been the limiting step here - it is the source of energy in the system. If an article says Honda was running out of ERS on the straight does not in my opinion say anything meaningful about 'ERS management'.

Combustion is and always has been the limiting step here
Is it thought? There are a lot more parameters at play. Sure the ers produces 160hp, but how much Ampere/hours does the motor requires to produce that bhp? How efficient are the electric motors used? How does the bms handles the batteries?
These arent issues that relate closely, or at all to the internal combustion engine.

[nzjrs]

Im not exactly sure why people are surprised or even mad that Honda's weak spot is ERS management. This has been apparent since day one they came back to sport and it still is considering all of their focus is shifted in internal combustion concepts and efficient turbos. They're trying to compensate with aggressive engine mappings etc but on the tracks where battery matters , honda always was on the back foot. This is especially compared to Merc and Renault

I'm confused, what do you mean here by ERS management and what do you think others mean when they say (for example) run out of ERS on the straight?

Combustion is and always has been the limiting step here - it is the source of energy in the system. If an article says Honda was running out of ERS on the straight does not in my opinion say anything meaningful about 'ERS management'.

Combustion is and always has been the limiting step here
Is it thought? There are a lot more parameters at play. Sure the ers produces 160hp, but how much Ampere/hours does the motor requires to produce that bhp? How efficient are the electric motors used? How does the bms handles the batteries?
These arent issues that relate closely, or at all to the internal combustion engine.

Well from an energy balance perspective, it absolutely is the limiting step. I don't dispute that what you listed matters, but that it's influence is amplified or attenuated by combustion as a whole.

I would say all PU manufacturers have their tricks for part-throttle harvest 'strategies' (the whole 'free-energy' pathway discussed on the Honda PU thread quite a lot), but that assumes you have the combustion such that you can draw power away to spend later - and not have it cost you in the immediate time.

At that point you pay the efficiency tax on those things you listed, but you have to have the energy (from combustion) available to spend (to pay the tax on).

[rogazilla]

Agree with nzjrs. The source of ALL energy is ICE. The car starts from stationary and ICE provide all energy. rest are all trying to recover that energy that would otherwise be wasted in term of thermo or kinetic.

On the other hand, I think the issue is from both side. I can't quantify PU or car in term of which has bigger impact on time but the balance of the car in my opinion is a bigger issue than PU deficit. Obviously I don't know how the car is setup. I seem to remember last weekend Max' qualy was losing time in S2 where this weekend his faster in S2. Could it be a compromise to have a bit more downforce for qualy or try to keep it from snap oversteer?

[Datco]

I don't know if I missed where it's discussed but any reason for Albons poor pace and why Max did not get fastest lap?

[isullivan]

Max had front and rear wing damage and traffic in one of his fast laps.

[rogazilla]

I don't know if I missed where it's discussed but any reason for Albons poor pace and why Max did not get fastest lap?

From my understanding, he never found a setup that he's comfortable this whole weekend. Understeer on Friday, oversteer on Saturday (wet).

[etusch]

this is another point of view and points very important thing.

Ralf Schumacher: "Red Bull needs a fast second driver"

One of the problems that Red Bull has been experiencing in recent years is that it is putting pressure on Mercedes with only one vehicle in the front section. For this reason, the German manufacturer gets the chance to hunt Red Bull with different strategies.

Ralf Schumacher said: “Alex is very slow. It's always half a second slower than Max. Sometimes this difference increases even more depending on the track. "