[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[90feet]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

I don't get this attempted retort. Yes, teams copy ideas all the time. No, teams do not wholesale copy entire cars all the time. That is an obviously and objectively unique scenario and that's why people are responding to it differently. Feel about it however you want but don't lie and pretend it's a normal thing that happens all the time.

[mwillems]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

I don't get this attempted retort. Yes, teams copy ideas all the time. No, teams do not wholesale copy entire cars all the time. That is an obviously and objectively unique scenario and that's why people are responding to it differently. Feel about it however you want but don't lie and pretend it's a normal thing that happens all the time.

Err.... it wasn't a retort just an expression of my opinion. Opinions are subjective and therefore cant really be lies either.

In my opinion, when a precedent is set it tends to lay the course for most things that extend out from it. Copying for me is a precedent that has been set, so I have no issue with what Racing Point has done. It won't win them a title or too many fans in the long run. But I'm not too bothered about that either. In my view its a strategic masterstroke and hats off to them. I just wish it was Williams and not RP.

Is that an acceptable opinion?

[mwillems]

Oh... Didn’t realize that, but not all of “us” are against what Racing Point did, at least not me


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes but the preceding remarks were from individuals talking about what Racing Point did, so I was hoping that context was clear and that it was a general reply to those who are upset, and that those who aren't could easily discern that pass right by as if they were Sergio Perez

https://media1.giphy.com/media/1HFW57gpsSLEA/giphy.gif




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ground Effect]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

The thing is “copying” has always been a part of F1, nobody is arguing about that. The bottom line is, most don’t believe RP merely copied like the whole grid does. They believe a lot more has gone into what they’ve done. Marcin Budkowski was quite eloquent in his remarks, things that the rules don’t allow, like the brake ducts being another teams design. He believes it’s a Mercedes design.They’re not protesting the nose or bargeboards, side pods, floor etc. All those can easily be argued that they can be copied, some things can’t. Below are Carlos Sainz words.

Carlos: "I asked my engineers 'Why don't we copy Mercedes too?' and they told me it's impossible. F1 is in the detail, and it's impossible to copy those details," he said. "I believe them and I'm not going to say any more."

[Manoah2u]

Well, as long as Carlos is driving for Mclaren, his words will be paired to Mclaren, and since Mclaren is taking Mercedes engines next year, don't expect anything 'clear cut' to be mentioned.

Nevertheless, it's an interesting choice of words which makes you definately think.

[diffuser]

If they deem the Pink Mercedes illegal what about the points they got in the first race? Remember that Mclaren paid a heavy fine 12 years back from that Spygate and that is as equivalent as a Spygate since the Mercedes Technical team helped them copy last years car without saying anything to the FIA.

That's a sticky wicket. It's not like they can redesign the brake ducts for the next race ....Maybe for Silverstone

They can probably redesign them, but not very efficiently. And, next race is one of the hottest.
By redesign I mean alter the drawing enough to make it different rather than a good piece.

They'll probably let them race with a drop dead data to change whatever they find illegal.

[diffuser]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

The thing is “copying” has always been a part of F1, nobody is arguing about that. The bottom line is, most don’t believe RP merely copied like the whole grid does. They believe a lot more has gone into what they’ve done. Marcin Budkowski was quite eloquent in his remarks, things that the rules don’t allow, like the brake ducts being another teams design. He believes it’s a Mercedes design.They’re not protesting the nose or bargeboards, side pods, floor etc. All those can easily be argued that they can be copied, some things can’t. Below are Carlos Sainz words.

Carlos: "I asked my engineers 'Why don't we copy Mercedes too?' and they told me it's impossible. F1 is in the detail, and it's impossible to copy those details," he said. "I believe them and I'm not going to say any more."

For me, I was outraged because in my mind, teams don't copy, they adapt what they see on other cars to solve problems on their cars. This seems more like they just took the W10. That being said, I'm over it. If Renault found proof they cheated, even better.

[genarro]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

The thing is “copying” has always been a part of F1, nobody is arguing about that. The bottom line is, most don’t believe RP merely copied like the whole grid does. They believe a lot more has gone into what they’ve done. Marcin Budkowski was quite eloquent in his remarks, things that the rules don’t allow, like the brake ducts being another teams design. He believes it’s a Mercedes design.They’re not protesting the nose or bargeboards, side pods, floor etc. All those can easily be argued that they can be copied, some things can’t. Below are Carlos Sainz words.

Carlos: "I asked my engineers 'Why don't we copy Mercedes too?' and they told me it's impossible. F1 is in the detail, and it's impossible to copy those details," he said. "I believe them and I'm not going to say any more."

For me, I was outraged because in my mind, teams don't copy, they adapt what they see on other cars to solve problems on their cars. This seems more like they just took the W10. That being said, I'm over it. If Renault found proof they cheated, even better.

If there wasany foul play betwen RP and Merc (because the only way for RP to copy the internals is by Merc giving them their intelectual property) then they both should be penalised. Like i said before if sanctions are not taken then the sport loses its credibility.

[_cerber1]

Very good pace at the end of the race

[mwillems]

I don't get this "copy" argument, people copy ideas in F1 all the time, sometimes almost exactly. Designers like Newey stand in front of rival cars with notepads. Teams hire photographers to get other cars secrets

Ideas on the most efficient shapes converge over time until the next set of regulations. So they have done it more than anyone ever before, yes, but they haven't actually done anything different to what people have done during every season of F1. People copy and nobody drew a line to say you can't copy too much, because you can't do it reliably I don't think. The outcome is too subjective.

It's massively irritating that they have got ahead of us but it is what it is. We can't just throw the toys out the pram simply because a team is faster. If they copied then they will have a harder time upgrading, we can get our heads down and push on.

The thing is “copying” has always been a part of F1, nobody is arguing about that. The bottom line is, most don’t believe RP merely copied like the whole grid does. They believe a lot more has gone into what they’ve done. Marcin Budkowski was quite eloquent in his remarks, things that the rules don’t allow, like the brake ducts being another teams design. He believes it’s a Mercedes design.They’re not protesting the nose or bargeboards, side pods, floor etc. All those can easily be argued that they can be copied, some things can’t. Below are Carlos Sainz words.

Carlos: "I asked my engineers 'Why don't we copy Mercedes too?' and they told me it's impossible. F1 is in the detail, and it's impossible to copy those details," he said. "I believe them and I'm not going to say any more."

It will be interesting to see what comes out of it, I have read that those break ducts could be copied but perhaps I read wrong. If people can't really see how they are designed inside then how do Renault have a case to say that RP took their design from Merc, they wouldn't be able to tell for the same reason. I might be naive but it doesn't add up to me.

Do I feel that they have broken the spirit of the rules? Part of me finds it hard to believe that Toto would let his team and the huge Merc brand to which he is beholden get embroiled into a scandal like this by giving away designs.

Have they bought designs from impoverished Merc designers? I don't know, maybe. Do we know if they hired any ex Mercedes staff with knowledge of the Merc design? Possibly and that would be both OK and quite smart if they intended to copy the Merc philosophy.

At this point I'm not prepared to assume they have been underhand, nor do I see any evidence to show that they have.

Maybe they have been underhand, but until I see evidence of that I'd rather just say well done!

Edit: So I just read about the rule on it being your own IP for the ducts and that the geometries are allegedly too close. I don't see anywhere that it says that they did more than just copy, or have designs for parts they couldn't copy, just that these parts they should not have copied. But that is different to the arguments being posted in here. They may have breached a technicality but I still don't see anything to make me feel that their overall approach is wrong or that anything naughty has happened between teams.

[Emag]

Very good pace at the end of the race
https://radikal.ru

They really need to have a look to try and fix that high fuel performance. A lot of the car's pace is lost on those early laps.

[Ground Effect]

Very good pace at the end of the race
https://radikal.ru

Yeah, but fresher tyres though, and likely Lewis had turned down the engine at that stage... just cruising to the end.

[mwillems]

This car is super quick on low fuel, but it loses so much compared to the competition on the bigger weight. I am guessing it has something to do with the tire management, maybe they can't get enough heat into them, I am not sure. I have also spotted that they get a lot faster towards the end of the tire stint too. Like when the tires are about to run out, McLaren manages to get a lot more out of the car compared to the competition.

I hope they pinpoint what's causing this slump on race day because if they an translate their quali pace into sundays, then there are chances to take a lot of points if Albon has off-weekends (like Styria). It is also necessary in order to keep the Racing Points behind for the time being until some upgrades (which were originally planned for Silverstone if I am not mistaken) for the car. Hopefully they deliver some extra performance because at the moment the RP is faster on race trim and that's when the points are awarded.

Could it be that the Centre of Gravity is too high with a full tank?

[JRindt]

Very good pace at the end of the race
https://radikal.ru

Can you do the same for Lando and Perez? That’d be very insightful.

[_cerber1]

Can you do the same for Lando and Perez? That’d be very insightful.

service https://f1report.ru/lapbylap/2020/shtir ... -ring.html