[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[loekf2]

I feel Red Bull's blunder was their track day in Silverstone instead of the Red Bull Ring. How did they let Renault run the track and not do film day there themselves and shake down the car before hand? It's their home course. Red Bull could have capitalized on Mercedes issues first race plus hotter favorable conditions but blew it.

Quarantine rules in the UK still that week. If you left the UK and wanted to go back, you needed to stay 2 weeks locked up at home. That's why Verstappen didn't come to Silverstone for the procedure testing.

Think they were lifted the next week.

[TNTHead]

As Kees van der Grint (a Dutch F1 tyre specialist and self proclaimed F1 commentator) states: the second driver reveals the true pace of the car. With that reasoning RB is at Racing Point level at the moment, with Mercedes far away.

He's absolutely, 100% incorrect, of course. The faster driver is closest to the true pace of the car. No driver can drive faster than the car can physically go - it's impossible. The best drivers just get closer to the best lap time the car/tyre combination can give at any point.

you are right but I think he also right. Just different things. If second driver also faster than others, as he is less ability to drive fast, this means car is fast car and 1st driver can go much faster. you can think like that, Albon is behind Verstappen with same margine and he is as fast as Verstappen today. In this condition, in last race Albon would fight with Bottas and Verstappen will be 40 second ahead of Albon and also ahead of Hamilton.

Of course you are right that the fastest driver is closest to the maximum pace of the car and its physically impossible to go beyond that point. I think he meant that the second driver (which is for some reason struggling to get close to the maximum pace) exposes the ease to reach that maximum pace. I find it a nice short rule of thumb to evaluate car performance.

[MildSevenB195R25]

Of course you are right that the fastest driver is closest to the maximum pace of the car and its physically impossible to go beyond that point. I think he meant that the second driver (which is for some reason struggling to get close to the maximum pace) exposes the ease to reach that maximum pace. I find it a nice short rule of thumb to evaluate car performance.

Red Bull alienated both Sainz and Ricciardo in their quest to coalesce their whole project around their golden child Max, so what you have left is two drivers (Gasly and Albon) who were completely not ready to step into the main car. Albon is doing slightly better than Gasly pace wise, granted but still.

It’s remarkable the spin and perception people put on Inter-team politics depending on who it is. Is Max sensationally fast, daring In all conditions and improving his racecraft all the time? Certainly. However he’s being made to look better than he is by what is all of a sudden glaring lack of experience/talent depth in the RB driver ranks? Also true.

Nobody can convince me that Ricciardo or Sainz would be half a second down In quali nor finishing 40 seconds behind on Sunday

[Pyrone89]

Ehm, no .. they've had low rake and longer wheelbase a long time before 2018, and this was entirely clear when this simpler FW directive came about.
It was always going to effect high rake/short(er) wheelbase a lot harder.

Show me one single credible article or post here on forums with some logic to define why it would hit the cars with high rake that predicted this before the cars hit the ground in 2019. I remember reading hundreds of post justifying High Rake is the way to go with the new, simplified front wing.

Perhaps a memory glitch ?
High rake does offer some incredible features over low rake, however it is relying much much more on perfectly sealing the floor aerodynamically.
A whole lot more than low raked cars such as the Merc, that with their longer platform is A. less susceptible to breaking the floor sealing and B. has more floor to generate downforce with.
The 2018 FW's were masterpieces (not only RB's) in generating and controlling the vortices that sealed the floors; a guy like Newey probably dreamt for decades about the Y250 vortex.
But nowadays things became way more complicated than just that; ERS added an important yet complex layer, and with converging raw PU power you see that maximum power is starting to get overshadowed by things like drivability and reliability.

And yet .. with a significant lower ranked PU, RB was still able to win races on merit. So, we will never know ofcourse, but a high-raked RB with a perfectly fitted Merc engine, the outcome of the last race would have been a hell of lot more exiting. The homologation for this year and 2021 will make these years the biggest borefest ever. Hope I'm wrong though.
And with RP/AM next yr on this years Merc Platform + PU plus McL with a Merc might force RB maybe to be only the 4th quickest team.

Add in the cut in the floor in 2021 and it is clear high raked cars are screwed

[DChemTech]

Show me one single credible article or post here on forums with some logic to define why it would hit the cars with high rake that predicted this before the cars hit the ground in 2019. I remember reading hundreds of post justifying High Rake is the way to go with the new, simplified front wing.

Perhaps a memory glitch ?
High rake does offer some incredible features over low rake, however it is relying much much more on perfectly sealing the floor aerodynamically.
A whole lot more than low raked cars such as the Merc, that with their longer platform is A. less susceptible to breaking the floor sealing and B. has more floor to generate downforce with.
The 2018 FW's were masterpieces (not only RB's) in generating and controlling the vortices that sealed the floors; a guy like Newey probably dreamt for decades about the Y250 vortex.
But nowadays things became way more complicated than just that; ERS added an important yet complex layer, and with converging raw PU power you see that maximum power is starting to get overshadowed by things like drivability and reliability.

And yet .. with a significant lower ranked PU, RB was still able to win races on merit. So, we will never know ofcourse, but a high-raked RB with a perfectly fitted Merc engine, the outcome of the last race would have been a hell of lot more exiting. The homologation for this year and 2021 will make these years the biggest borefest ever. Hope I'm wrong though.
And with RP/AM next yr on this years Merc Platform + PU plus McL with a Merc might force RB maybe to be only the 4th quickest team.

Add in the cut in the floor in 2021 and it is clear high raked cars are screwed

It's sad really, that every measure to 'bring the field closer' and 'make driving more exiting' has consistently screwed non Mercedes... eh, sorry, high rake cars, thereby making the competition in front less attractive.

[Bill]

I don't understand Fia reason for cutting floor why can't they just play around with the size or angle of rear wing.Pirelli has proven multiple times that they are not upto the task the opportunity to bring Michelin was there but for some reason still stuck with Pirelli.does Fia really want to improve the show because for some reason they always shoot themself in the foot.

Ever since the advent of f1 overtaking group men with magic recipe that going to make f1 great against f1 have been jumping from one rule change to another looking for that holy grail of entertainment perfection.Rules are supposed to last for 5 years,but top brass are getting restless.i think it's time they give and stop wasting everyone's money.

[Pyrone89]

I feel Red Bull's blunder was their track day in Silverstone instead of the Red Bull Ring. How did they let Renault run the track and not do film day there themselves and shake down the car before hand? It's their home course. Red Bull could have capitalized on Mercedes issues first race plus hotter favorable conditions but blew it.

True

[SmallSoldier]

Perhaps a memory glitch ?
High rake does offer some incredible features over low rake, however it is relying much much more on perfectly sealing the floor aerodynamically.
A whole lot more than low raked cars such as the Merc, that with their longer platform is A. less susceptible to breaking the floor sealing and B. has more floor to generate downforce with.
The 2018 FW's were masterpieces (not only RB's) in generating and controlling the vortices that sealed the floors; a guy like Newey probably dreamt for decades about the Y250 vortex.
But nowadays things became way more complicated than just that; ERS added an important yet complex layer, and with converging raw PU power you see that maximum power is starting to get overshadowed by things like drivability and reliability.

And yet .. with a significant lower ranked PU, RB was still able to win races on merit. So, we will never know ofcourse, but a high-raked RB with a perfectly fitted Merc engine, the outcome of the last race would have been a hell of lot more exiting. The homologation for this year and 2021 will make these years the biggest borefest ever. Hope I'm wrong though.
And with RP/AM next yr on this years Merc Platform + PU plus McL with a Merc might force RB maybe to be only the 4th quickest team.

Add in the cut in the floor in 2021 and it is clear high raked cars are screwed

It's sad really, that every measure to 'bring the field closer' and 'make driving more exiting' has consistently screwed non Mercedes... eh, sorry, high rake cars, thereby making the competition in front less attractive.

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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[Pyrone89]

Add in the cut in the floor in 2021 and it is clear high raked cars are screwed

It's sad really, that every measure to 'bring the field closer' and 'make driving more exiting' has consistently screwed non Mercedes... eh, sorry, high rake cars, thereby making the competition in front less attractive.

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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You dont just change the whole concept in 1 month

[DChemTech]

Add in the cut in the floor in 2021 and it is clear high raked cars are screwed

It's sad really, that every measure to 'bring the field closer' and 'make driving more exiting' has consistently screwed non Mercedes... eh, sorry, high rake cars, thereby making the competition in front less attractive.

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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Well, aside from difficulties, it just doesn't make sense that when one team is dominating, you alter the regulations such that it's even more difficult for competitors to catch up.

[SmallSoldier]

It's sad really, that every measure to 'bring the field closer' and 'make driving more exiting' has consistently screwed non Mercedes... eh, sorry, high rake cars, thereby making the competition in front less attractive.

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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You dont just change the whole concept in 1 month

1 month? I meant the change of regulations in 2018, the could have changed it over the winter to 2019 and also had an opportunity to change it into 2020... Mercedes actually showed up with 2 “completely different cars” for testing in 2019, which shows that teams with the capabilities of the top 3 have that ability.


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[SmallSoldier]

It's sad really, that every measure to 'bring the field closer' and 'make driving more exiting' has consistently screwed non Mercedes... eh, sorry, high rake cars, thereby making the competition in front less attractive.

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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Well, aside from difficulties, it just doesn't make sense that when one team is dominating, you alter the regulations such that it's even more difficult for competitors to catch up.

The thing is that I don’t believe that the regulations were changed in order to hamper the other competitors and they have had several years to change their approach to rake if they wanted to... If what some think in this thread (that low rake is superior with the current set of regulations than high rake), I find it hard to believe that Red Bull didn’t realized this too and didn’t made a change in their philosophy.


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[Pyrone89]

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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You dont just change the whole concept in 1 month

1 month? I meant the change of regulations in 2018, the could have changed it over the winter to 2019 and also had an opportunity to change it into 2020... Mercedes actually showed up with 2 “completely different cars” for testing in 2019, which shows that teams with the capabilities of the top 3 have that ability.


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I was talking about the 2021 floor cut.

And Mercedes didnt show up withe two different concepts. They showed up with two different aero packages. Big difference. And Mercedes has way more personnel than Red Bull.

[Pyrone89]

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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Well, aside from difficulties, it just doesn't make sense that when one team is dominating, you alter the regulations such that it's even more difficult for competitors to catch up.

The thing is that I don’t believe that the regulations were changed in order to hamper the other competitors and they have had several years to change their approach to rake if they wanted to... If what some think in this thread (that low rake is superior with the current set of regulations than high rake), I find it hard to believe that Red Bull didn’t realized this too and didn’t made a change in their philosophy.


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Perhaps Newey is just very stubborn, due to the previous experiences. The ‘we have always done it this way’ trap.

RP’s sudden success with an apparant photo based copy and limited resources show in my opinion low rake is the way to to. And 2021 floor cuts will make this even more so

[DChemTech]

Red Bull has had every opportunity to change concepts and go to a “low rake” car... With the amount of resources they have, I’m sure that they investigated the possibility and they stuck with their high rake because they saw more potential... If not, it would mean that they didn’t want to change their concept knowing that it was the inferior one, which I wouldn’t expect them to do.


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Well, aside from difficulties, it just doesn't make sense that when one team is dominating, you alter the regulations such that it's even more difficult for competitors to catch up.

The thing is that I don’t believe that the regulations were changed in order to hamper the other competitors and they have had several years to change their approach to rake if they wanted to... If what some think in this thread (that low rake is superior with the current set of regulations than high rake), I find it hard to believe that Red Bull didn’t realized this too and didn’t made a change in their philosophy.


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I don't think they deliberately changed the rules to hamper competition either, but the way the rules was changed did hamper competition in practice, which should (and could, and probably to an extend was) be realized upfront. However, keep in mind there was not one -big- regulation change that -massively- hampered high rake cars. There were small changes, each time hampering everyone to some extend, and high rake setups more than average. But I can very well imagine that each time, Red Bull figured that a total concept overhaul would set them back more than sticking with the concept - a full concept overhaul may have taken more than one year to get on top of. And every time, they were probably right in that, had there not been an at that point unforeseen change in the next year, plus an extension of the current formula this year. Had they known all these things, perhaps they would have changed more radically in 2016 or so.

And still, it doesn't change my point. If you change regulations because racing is boring because one team is dominating, you need to keep in mind what effect that regulation change will have, considering the car philosophies teams are using at that point- and if it makes the already dominating concept even more dominating, you should not push the change. Especially if it essentially forces all teams to follow the same philosophy as the leading team. It's nice if teams can compete with different philosophies, cars look enough alike as it is. That the most successful car
upgrade this year seems to be the one team that just copy/pasted last years front runner, shows how dire the state of F1 regulation is. If we're going that way anyway, i'd rather just see a standardized chassis - at least in that case the other teams do get a proper chance to compete.