This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Point 3 was also true for Verstappen in 16. But thanks for taking the time to make the detailed reply also, writing out what doesn’t perhaps need te be said but makes more clear where you are coming from. Highly appreciate that.
I am not one of the person on a crusade against Albon. I see racecraft and dare, he is quick and the situation is a pressure cooker for any guy getting that seat. He keeps his head and works on his own improved, Gasly was much more externally focused. Not so much by Verstappen politics, but just Indeed the fact that the benchmark is high.
Your probably right Verstappen would get any best parts first. Horner did make a point of it they were trying different set-ups but I too have a sneaking suspicion 1 nose left is not enough. Damage it in Q2 and you have no time left to change car set-up. Noses Also take an enormous time to built So 3 back to back with those yellow curbs exit T6 in the first 2 weekends is not ideal for high rake, low nosed cars. Risk of damage is too big. In fact Max broke his nose in the first and second weekend.
Verstappen might have a slight priority for parts since he is more likely to fight for a strong WDC position. But lets not exaggerate the extent to which Albon is disadvantaged. It's not like the team is not supporting him. He got equal time in pre-season testing and he got the whole pre-Austria filming day to himself.
I think if you'd ask Albon about his performance throughout the Styrian GP weekend, he'd probably admit that it was average. And ultimately thats what many judge him on. Same equipment as Verstappen, equal chances, different result.
According to the official Formula 1 website, the Red Bull Ring coincides with Spa-Francorchamps and Baku in a list of certain circuits where the MGU-K cannot regain enough energy from braking.
The Red Bull Ring has three long straights with few turns to regenerate energy. As a result, the system temporarily fails and the rider misses an average of 160 hp. Because Honda has a development delay compared to Mercedes, the Honda will drop out earlier than the Mercedes.
Red Bull makes up for lack of MGU-K with less downforce
Some measurements have been taken to address this issue: on the finish line the Mercedes appears to reach 288 kilometers per hour, while the Red Bull records 285 kilometers per hour. At the measuring point a little further on, the Mercedes continues to 317 and Red Bull 306 kilometers per hour: the difference is already starting to increase here.
To compensate for this lack of top speed, Red Bull took downward pressure from Max Verstappen's car. This in turn leads to higher tire degradation. In the end, this is what caused Verstappen's pace to collapse on older tires, allowing Valtteri Bottas to overtake the Red Bull in the end.
According to the official Formula 1 website, the Red Bull Ring coincides with Spa-Francorchamps and Baku in a list of certain circuits where the MGU-K cannot regain enough energy from braking.
The Red Bull Ring has three long straights with few turns to regenerate energy. As a result, the system temporarily fails and the rider misses an average of 160 hp. Because Honda has a development delay compared to Mercedes, the Honda will drop out earlier than the Mercedes.
Red Bull makes up for lack of MGU-K with less downforce
Some measurements have been taken to address this issue: on the finish line the Mercedes appears to reach 288 kilometers per hour, while the Red Bull records 285 kilometers per hour. At the measuring point a little further on, the Mercedes continues to 317 and Red Bull 306 kilometers per hour: the difference is already starting to increase here.
To compensate for this lack of top speed, Red Bull took downward pressure from Max Verstappen's car. This in turn leads to higher tire degradation. In the end, this is what caused Verstappen's pace to collapse on older tires, allowing Valtteri Bottas to overtake the Red Bull in the end.
I've done a rough lap-by-lap of the Styrian GP (if anyone knows where I can get lap-by-lap timing info for each driver, preferably not in graph form, I'd be eternally grateful to be pointed in it's direction. Pausing the TV and scribbling down gaps is...less accurate and not fun). I've taken lap numbers and gaps from the moment the leader crossed the line (or, as close as I could get given that FOM don't show the gap timings continuously). With that in mind, this is clearly a 'rough guide' at best.
***Removed to avoid confusion as much of my data and conclusions were incorrect. Please see a couple of posts below for the updated version***
Last edited by Wynters on 16 Jul 2020, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
I've done a rough lap-by-lap of the Styrian GP (if anyone knows where I can get lap-by-lap timing info for each driver, preferably not in graph form, I'd be eternally grateful to be pointed in it's direction. Pausing the TV and scribbling down gaps is...less accurate and not fun). I've taken lap numbers and gaps from the moment the leader crossed the line (or, as close as I could get given that FOM don't show the gap timings continuously).
Why hasn't any of this happened in the last 2 years when RBR dominated this race?
Good point. When you lost some needs something to blame. I think perez albon battle says enough. Maybe merso is better on straights but Honda is not that bad. Chassis side is side development most needed
The whole hybrid era Redbull have been running minimal rear wing and mastered it in 2017 without ruining the tyres. The speed difference isn't anywhere like the gap seen few years ago, Ferrari have a problem in that regards.
Hungary will be a test, no more excuses and talking must be result based. If they are not matching Merc here then we know where the problem is.
According to the official Formula 1 website, the Red Bull Ring coincides with Spa-Francorchamps and Baku in a list of certain circuits where the MGU-K cannot regain enough energy from braking.
The Red Bull Ring has three long straights with few turns to regenerate energy. As a result, the system temporarily fails and the rider misses an average of 160 hp. Because Honda has a development delay compared to Mercedes, the Honda will drop out earlier than the Mercedes.
Red Bull makes up for lack of MGU-K with less downforce
Some measurements have been taken to address this issue: on the finish line the Mercedes appears to reach 288 kilometers per hour, while the Red Bull records 285 kilometers per hour. At the measuring point a little further on, the Mercedes continues to 317 and Red Bull 306 kilometers per hour: the difference is already starting to increase here.
To compensate for this lack of top speed, Red Bull took downward pressure from Max Verstappen's car. This in turn leads to higher tire degradation. In the end, this is what caused Verstappen's pace to collapse on older tires, allowing Valtteri Bottas to overtake the Red Bull in the end.
Why hasn't any of this happened in the last 2 years when RBR dominated this race?
i don't remember the race 2 years before, but last year there was a real heat in austria, so everyone, even gasly tuned down the engine to prevent overheating. everyone but verstappen, because honda saw good chance for their first victory, so they risked the higher engine modes for verstappen. gasly told once, he was never allowed to use the higher engine modes. regarding mercedes, they were fighting with constant overheating last year in austria, therefore they simply couldn't utilize the capabilities of their engine.
I've done a rough lap-by-lap of the Styrian GP (if anyone knows where I can get lap-by-lap timing info for each driver, preferably not in graph form, I'd be eternally grateful to be pointed in it's direction. Pausing the TV and scribbling down gaps is...less accurate and not fun). I've taken lap numbers and gaps from the moment the leader crossed the line (or, as close as I could get given that FOM don't show the gap timings continuously).
I've basically blanked my old post as the data was rubbish (thank you to Juzh and Subcritical71 for your help resolving that problem). This stuff is better and, as a result, I've reached different conclusions as well as adding some notes about Perez and the Racing Point.
- Verstappen pits on lap 24, an understandable call as Bottas is closing at 2/10ths a lap and is only 2 seconds behind him. The undercut threat is very real.
- Verstappen comes out and he averages a pretty consistent 1:08.2 lap time, until Bottas pits.
- Bottas pits at the end of lap 34 and comes out 8.3 seconds behind Verstappen.
- Over the next 9 laps, he closes to 6.5 seconds. Over this time, Verstappen ups his pace a little. He's now doing 1:08.0 lap average. Bottas has been averaging 1:07.8
- Something change clearly occurs at this point. For the next six laps, instead of closing, Bottas starts falling away. Verstappen is averaging 1:08.1 but Bottas drops to 1:08.65. He does manage at 1:08.17 in the middle of this small number of laps, but also a couple of 1:09.0. Is this traffic? Is he cooling the car?
- Lap 50, Verstappen is 9.5 seconds ahead of Bottas and, as 41.4 seconds ahead of Albon. Verstappen's lead on both drivers will never be larger than it is now. I mention Albon purely as a comparison point.
- Bottas starts closing rapidly. For five laps, he's closing at 5/10ths a lap (1:07.7s), Verstappen lapping in the 1:08.2s. Verstappen then puts in a quick lap, dipping into the 1:07s on lap 56 but I suspect he damages his wing around now (we hear team radio two laps later noting the damage and a 2-lap delay is pretty average).
- From lap 56, Verstappen's times drop to 1:08.4s. Bottas is relentlessly in the 1:07.7s Verstappen's tyres are 33 laps old which probably doesn't help.
- Up until lap 50, the car behind Albon has been doing 1:08.4s and he's been matching that. Perez has just passed Ricciardo though. Interestingly, while chasing Ricciardo down, Perez was doing 1:08.2s. He passes Ricciardo and starts doing 1:07.8s for the 5 laps it takes to catch Albon*.
- Albon has clearly seen him coming and upped his own pace. He's now doing 1:08.2s. From lap 57 onwards, it's obvious that Perez has pace enough to pass despite the dirty air. Albon (or Honda) realise this is a real problem and he begins to accelerate, his lap times dropping into 1:07.5s where he and Perez stay until the contact. This is interesting because it's a pace Verstappen doesn't reach until his fastest lap attempts at the very end. Verstappen only had six laps below 1:08.0 total (other than these last two). Albon has 13 pretty much back-to-back.**
- At this same point, Verstappen is almost a second-a-lap slower. I suspect a combination of the wing damage and tyres as I assume Verstappen has been hitting them a bit harder (Albon seemed to be cruising at Ricciardo's speed until Perez blasted past)?
- My suspicions about tyres are reinforced when, even after Bottas passes him, Verstappen's times drop into the 1:10s and he pits immediately (despite RBR likely knowing he was coming out in traffic so the fastest lap was unlikely). I think his tyres had given up on him.
- Verstappen comes out in a train of GRO-GIO-MAG-RAI. He clears all but RAI by the end of his outlap but can't quite find the clear air he needs to get fastest lap. He does set his fastest lap of the race though, a 1:06.145, before running into the back of Raikkonen's dirty air.
*Perez pitted 4 laps later than Bottas. But this is almost Bottas-chasing-Verstappen pace. From laps 40-65 (which includes Bottas slow stint but also Perez being behind Ricciardo), Perez is nearly 1/10th of a second faster, lap-by-lap, on average, than Bottas. Bottas sets his fastest lap of the race on lap 62 (1:07.534). We know Perez's tyres are a little younger but from lap 62 until the contact with Albon on lap 69, Perez is only slower than that once and sets his own fastest lap on lap 68 (1:07.188).
**Albon isn't a quicker driver, so I wonder what lies behind the difference? That burst of back-to-backs are between tyre life laps 22-33 of Albon's tyres. At the same period of tyre life, Verstappen was doing 1:08.2s. There will be a small bit of fuel difference but not much (as Verstappen's tyres hit lap 33, Albon's hit lap 22)
I don't think this is truly indicative of the pace differential between Mercedes and Racing Point. Hamilton did a 1:06.719 on the same lap on 11 lap older tyres. But it highlights the pace of the Racing Point as well as how under control this race was for Mercedes. It seems reasonable to conclude that Bottas had more in the pace if he needed it. Also worth noting Hamilton's fastest lap on 41-lap old is only less than 6/10ths slower than Verstappen's.
I'm aware it's a pretty dense block of text and my observations are probably quite rambling and hard to follow. Feedback is very welcome.
Please don't apologize, that was good info. I am not willing to do such an analysis unless someone pays me, but I am glad you did it and it certainly helps paint a clearer picture.
I know from memory that Bottas struggled more with the traffic. You were asking where that gap increase was coming from. First Verstappen lost some time but when Bottas hit that same traffic he lost much more. Bottas later also said he was a bit unlucky with where he caught them. I believe he said he even spent a full lap behind one.
