General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
SmallSoldier
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
JordanMugen wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 13:18
ispano6 wrote:
22 Mar 2020, 05:04
Red Bull and Honda seemed more prepared and eager to get out and start the season strong. Mercedes dodged a bullet not having to race with their questionable engine and rear suspension
It seems like both Red Bull and Honda got their performance targets wrong for both the chassis and power unit, and have missed the mark quite a lot compared to what is actually required to compete for victories in 2020 (nothing wrong with being P2 in WCC though -- that is still very, very good!!).

Such confidence to start the season seems misplaced now!
Absolutely not, had the first race taken place in Australia and the season underway, we would have been 9+ rounds into the season. Mercedes rear suspension was definitely not ready and they would have had to deal with their gremlins as well. Hindsight is 20/20 but to say the confidence is misplaced is wrong as the situation afforded Mercedes months to correct their issues.

Also to add, PU manufacturers had to shut down and cannot upgrade performance throughout the season as originally planned, and Red Bull haven't had real world track running and are going based on theoretical numbers and most sessions have been wet or unable to carry out proper evaluation. Red Bull would have been very strong at the beginning of the season and would have been 9 races into developing the car instead of 2.
This is the same situation for every single team, Mercedes didn’t show any “suspension” issues.

@JordanMugen is right, there was either a miscalculation or they underestimated Mercedes, but they missed the mark.


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ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ME4ME wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 20:01
ispano6 wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 19:45
Absolutely not, had the first race taken place in Australia and the season underway, we would have been 9+ rounds into the season. Mercedes rear suspension was definitely not ready and they would have had to deal with their gremlins as well. Hindsight is 20/20 but to say the confidence is misplaced is wrong as the situation afforded Mercedes months to correct their issues.

Also to add, PU manufacturers had to shut down and cannot upgrade performance throughout the season as originally planned, and Red Bull haven't had real world track running and are going based on theoretical numbers and most sessions have been wet or unable to carry out proper evaluation. Red Bull would have been very strong at the beginning of the season and would have been 9 races into developing the car instead of 2.
I made the same comment here a few days ago that Mercedes indeed was helped by the delay to sort out their PU issues. But lets not go overboard and portrait Red Bull Honda as victims here. Both have had equal chance/limits to their development since pre-season testing. Mercedes have just aced it, not without its own issues (Austria1) but none the less aced it compared to all competition. Let's respect that, fair play to them.
Please, where have I even indicated Red Bull Honda as victims. Someone here making a comment about the stage of development three months ago shouldn't only now be judged as misplaced confidence. Again, what's the point you want to make?

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ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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SmallSoldier wrote:
18 Jul 2020, 00:38
ispano6 wrote:
JordanMugen wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 13:18


It seems like both Red Bull and Honda got their performance targets wrong for both the chassis and power unit, and have missed the mark quite a lot compared to what is actually required to compete for victories in 2020 (nothing wrong with being P2 in WCC though -- that is still very, very good!!).

Such confidence to start the season seems misplaced now!
Absolutely not, had the first race taken place in Australia and the season underway, we would have been 9+ rounds into the season. Mercedes rear suspension was definitely not ready and they would have had to deal with their gremlins as well. Hindsight is 20/20 but to say the confidence is misplaced is wrong as the situation afforded Mercedes months to correct their issues.

Also to add, PU manufacturers had to shut down and cannot upgrade performance throughout the season as originally planned, and Red Bull haven't had real world track running and are going based on theoretical numbers and most sessions have been wet or unable to carry out proper evaluation. Red Bull would have been very strong at the beginning of the season and would have been 9 races into developing the car instead of 2.
This is the same situation for every single team, Mercedes didn’t show any “suspension” issues.

@JordanMugen is right, there was either a miscalculation or they underestimated Mercedes, but they missed the mark.


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They did have a rear suspension that breached regulations. Look it up.

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Laserguru
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
18 Jul 2020, 04:29
SmallSoldier wrote:
18 Jul 2020, 00:38
ispano6 wrote:
Absolutely not, had the first race taken place in Australia and the season underway, we would have been 9+ rounds into the season. Mercedes rear suspension was definitely not ready and they would have had to deal with their gremlins as well. Hindsight is 20/20 but to say the confidence is misplaced is wrong as the situation afforded Mercedes months to correct their issues.

Also to add, PU manufacturers had to shut down and cannot upgrade performance throughout the season as originally planned, and Red Bull haven't had real world track running and are going based on theoretical numbers and most sessions have been wet or unable to carry out proper evaluation. Red Bull would have been very strong at the beginning of the season and would have been 9 races into developing the car instead of 2.
This is the same situation for every single team, Mercedes didn’t show any “suspension” issues.

@JordanMugen is right, there was either a miscalculation or they underestimated Mercedes, but they missed the mark.


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They did have a rear suspension that breached regulations. Look it up.
And now their rear suspension is best in class.
What do we know about RBR’s even innovative front suspension, any word it is related to their problems? Or is it all aero considering the simulation and cfd correlation issues Horner communicated? RBR seemed equally fast in sector 2, but very slow in sector 3, did not read a good analysis on where RBR lost most time exactly in Budapest yet!
Or is it engine torque, Honda still has poor starts, or is it engine drivability?
If it is all of the above ther is a LOT to do!
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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Interview with Masamitsu Motohashi in Japanese.
Maybe someone can translate the highlights? Maybe @Ispano?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/603769?all
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ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Wouter wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 15:26
Interview with Masamitsu Motohashi in Japanese.
Maybe someone can translate the highlights? Maybe @Ispano?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/603769?all
I've been a bit busy with work and can't translate the whole article but here are the tidbits:
- The results have been a little disappointing considering the potential of the car that should be there.
- The issue is that AT haven't quite gotten to grips with the car. They don't quite understand where the performance is lacking but is saying it's more an issue of getting the right set up and getting the car in it's sweet spot. They don't feel they went in the wrong setup direction, but the results don't reflect their actual performance. (so perhaps there is a strategy issue)

- It was unfortunate that Pierre suffered engine troubles and then subsequently retired from the race due to gearbox issues, but the race data demonstrated good performance up until his retirement.


I feel RB/AT/HRD have some work to do to understand why their performance is suffering considering their PU should be close to on par with Mercedes. Rob Smedley had a nice breakdown of where the Red Bull was losing time and it appears to be during the middle and exits of medium speed corners. The RB16 matches the Mercedes in Speedtraps but it also seems that Max carries more speed deeper into the corners than Hamilton. Either it's a driveability issue of the PUs power delivery or Max needs to carry a little less speed and let the car settle with minimal lock before putting down the power. Hamilton's angle of entry was far less than Max's and seemed he needed less lock to get around it.

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 05:57
Wouter wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 15:26
Interview with Masamitsu Motohashi in Japanese.
Maybe someone can translate the highlights? Maybe @Ispano?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/603769?all
.
I've been a bit busy with work and can't translate the whole article but here are the tidbits:
.........
I also had not asked to translate the entire text. This is sufficient.
Image @ Ispano6.
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etusch
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Thank you @ispano6

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 05:57
Wouter wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 15:26
Interview with Masamitsu Motohashi in Japanese.
Maybe someone can translate the highlights? Maybe @Ispano?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/603769?all
I've been a bit busy with work and can't translate the whole article but here are the tidbits:
- The results have been a little disappointing considering the potential of the car that should be there.
- The issue is that AT haven't quite gotten to grips with the car. They don't quite understand where the performance is lacking but is saying it's more an issue of getting the right set up and getting the car in it's sweet spot. They don't feel they went in the wrong setup direction, but the results don't reflect their actual performance. (so perhaps there is a strategy issue)

- It was unfortunate that Pierre suffered engine troubles and then subsequently retired from the race due to gearbox issues, but the race data demonstrated good performance up until his retirement.


I feel RB/AT/HRD have some work to do to understand why their performance is suffering considering their PU should be close to on par with Mercedes. Rob Smedley had a nice breakdown of where the Red Bull was losing time and it appears to be during the middle and exits of medium speed corners. The RB16 matches the Mercedes in Speedtraps but it also seems that Max carries more speed deeper into the corners than Hamilton. Either it's a driveability issue of the PUs power delivery or Max needs to carry a little less speed and let the car settle with minimal lock before putting down the power. Hamilton's angle of entry was far less than Max's and seemed he needed less lock to get around it.
Gearbox then. The ERS behaviours are also different. Mercedes drivers get off the brakes earlier going into the turn.
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Lock2nl
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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ispano6 wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 05:57
Wouter wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 15:26
Interview with Masamitsu Motohashi in Japanese.
Maybe someone can translate the highlights? Maybe @Ispano?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/603769?all
I've been a bit busy with work and can't translate the whole article but here are the tidbits:
- The results have been a little disappointing considering the potential of the car that should be there.
- The issue is that AT haven't quite gotten to grips with the car. They don't quite understand where the performance is lacking but is saying it's more an issue of getting the right set up and getting the car in it's sweet spot. They don't feel they went in the wrong setup direction, but the results don't reflect their actual performance. (so perhaps there is a strategy issue)

- It was unfortunate that Pierre suffered engine troubles and then subsequently retired from the race due to gearbox issues, but the race data demonstrated good performance up until his retirement.


I feel RB/AT/HRD have some work to do to understand why their performance is suffering considering their PU should be close to on par with Mercedes. Rob Smedley had a nice breakdown of where the Red Bull was losing time and it appears to be during the middle and exits of medium speed corners. The RB16 matches the Mercedes in Speedtraps but it also seems that Max carries more speed deeper into the corners than Hamilton. Either it's a driveability issue of the PUs power delivery or Max needs to carry a little less speed and let the car settle with minimal lock before putting down the power. Hamilton's angle of entry was far less than Max's and seemed he needed less lock to get around it.
The different way of taking corners is not entirely voluntary.
As Marko stated, the aero is messed up once the drivers steer into the corner. Under- and oversteer are reported by Max en Alex in these situations. The longer the car is steered in, the longer the car is messed up. This also means the drivers need to be cautious when going on the throttle (mid section at or around apex) and going full throttle exiting the corner when following the ideal line. That's where they lose valuable time too Merc.
One way of 'driving around' the problem is to shorten the time that the cars needs be steered into the corner, and allowing to put front and rear wheels in a straight line ASAP. To do this you first enter the corner more widely (hence more meters to drive). This means you have some extra meters for braking too (which causes your entry speed to increase somewhat). Once slowed down you must however steer into the corner more heavily (closer to full lock). And your speed needs to be lower to handle the change of direction (hence mid section speed is always lower compared to driving the ideal line like Hamilton). Next is to quickly line up front and rear wheels so you can maximize acceleration.
Not taking the smooth ideal line but in stead 'attack the corner' is something Max uses more often. To prevent going close to full lock he however plays with the back using a slight and short drift. With TR I saw him do this even during several races, like in Singapore. The problem with the RB16 is that this drift is too unpredictable as well. He actually stated he could no longer predict the moment the rear starts to slide because it happens too quickly. So there is no control and he cannot carry more speed into these corners using this controlled slide technique e.g. during a single quali run.
For Max the aero deficit means neither the ideal line nor the alternative one will work in the Hungarian corners. This is hurting him and Alex in many corners: at least in 5 - 9, 11- 14. That is why the gap with Mercedes is so large.
Last edited by Lock2nl on 25 Jul 2020, 11:29, edited 1 time in total.

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ispano6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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I don't doubt it's an aero balance and stalling issue, and seeing Rob Smedleys and F1's chart on steering input comparisons between Max and Lewis and also Max vs his last year time it's clear it is a chassis issue.

I have been suspicious of the front nose and cape for months so I'm glad to hear they know what the issue is and am pretty confident they can sort it out soon. Silverstone and Spain will be a good indicator and hopefully AT can perform well there too.

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etusch
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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The top of Honda and Red Bull will meet this week in Milton Keynes to discuss the gap with Mercedes. The German racing team is almost unbeatable and they have to become aware of that, says Honda top man Masashi Yamamoto.

It is the first time that such a meeting will be held in 2020. "I'd like to discuss the performance of the RB16 and the evolution of the Honda powerhouse. We need to talk about how we progress in the future," Yamamoto explains to Japanese Auto Sport.

There are a number of big names present at a meeting like this. Besides Yamamoto, Honda F1 boss Toyoharu Tanabe will also travel to the Red Bull factory. Here they will meet Christian Horner, Helmut Marko and Adrian Newey among others.

Meeting had to be held before British Grand Prix
After the somewhat disappointing results, the meeting had to take place as soon as possible, even before the races at Silverstone. "That's why we're travelling quickly to the factory in Milton Keynes. The meeting has to take place on the 29th or 30th of July," says Yamamoto

https://www.maximumf1.com/formula-1/300 ... -EZQ6w3kvE

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Wouter
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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etusch wrote:
27 Jul 2020, 13:59
The top of Honda and Red Bull will meet this week in Milton Keynes to discuss the gap with Mercedes.
.....................
Meeting had to be held before British Grand Prix
After the somewhat disappointing results, the meeting had to take place as soon as possible, even before the races at Silverstone. "That's why we're travelling quickly to the factory in Milton Keynes. The meeting has to take place on the 29th or 30th of July," says Yamamoto.

https://www.maximumf1.com/formula-1/300 ... -EZQ6w3kvE

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restless
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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somehow i doubt this meeting is "good news" :(

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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Didn't Tanabe say in Japan they were discussing whether to continue after 2021 and that they aren't happy with the development freeze. Maybe they come to give their decision and bad news of pulling out after this disaster start to the season after all the high hopes?