[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[langedweil]

De Merc has always been low-rake. Is that possible because of an overhead in power?

The overhand on power is surely not working against you ..
However, it's a totally different concept (low-rake) and switching now sets you back a few yrs of experience as Merc have perfectioned that very concept. Changing your concept 1yr (now 2 though) before a massive/major/neverseenbefore aero change is almost suicidal.

Unless ofcourse your trackside camera is that advanced it can even see the exact internals of, let's say for instance, a brakeduct; they you can step up quite quickly.

[bill shoe]

Red Bull always seem to have some sort of aero problem with their car at the beginning of the season that Newey and the team have to figure out and correct over the course of the season. This has been a regular pattern for them over the past many years.

Hypothesis:
Most teams have these type of aero problems, where the on-track aero performance is weaker and less consistent than CFD & tunnel. Red Bull and Newey are simply the team that have the curiosity and discipline to investigate down to root cause. This is clear from the last many seasons where RB are stronger at the end of the season than the beginning, and it's also clear from Newey's book "How to Build a Car". And every time RB/Newey figure out an aero correlation or aero performance problem, they learn from it. Most other teams downplay or ignore the same types of problems. This is why Red Bull is a front runner and most other teams are not.

[McMika98]

And every time RB/Newey figure out an aero correlation or aero performance problem, they learn from it. Most other teams downplay or ignore the same types of problems. This is why Red Bull is a front runner and most other teams are not.

Sorry but these statements are misguided. Redbull throw money and resources to solve the problem which none other team have other than Mercedes. If a team keeps producing car with flaws in every new formula than they have not solved their root causes. Also if you have a good baseline the resources can be used to apply performance gains, which is why Merc are miles ahead of Redbull and the midfield have closed the gap to them.
I'd take James Keys approach to build good base car all day over Neweys fancy car which needs lot more to get the optimum performance.

[hansdegit]

Unless ofcourse your trackside camera is that advanced it can even see the exact internals of, let's say for instance, a brakeduct; they you can step up quite quickly.

Haha!

[basti313]

De Merc has always been low-rake. Is that possible because of an overhead in power?

The overhand on power is surely not working against you ..
However, it's a totally different concept (low-rake) and switching now sets you back a few yrs of experience as Merc have perfectioned that very concept. Changing your concept 1yr (now 2 though) before a massive/major/neverseenbefore aero change is almost suicidal.

Unless ofcourse your trackside camera is that advanced it can even see the exact internals of, let's say for instance, a brakeduct; they you can step up quite quickly.

The low rake and long wheelbase design produces more drag as the whole concept relies on space to guide the air. This guiding produces drag.
RedBull was always full on rake as they always had to live with a less powerful engine, thus had to extract the best downforce to drag ratio, which is simply given by a raked floor and as little as possible air guiding.
At the time with the blown diffusor this was perfect for them and worked as long as the front wing was the only necessary part to guide the air. Now with the current front wing rules you need to work the air flow behind the front wing...this is why the concept does not work as well as before.

But in the end it simply comes to the point of engine power. I was totally surprised by claims of Ferrari or Honda engines being on par or higher in power...they had a completely different concept with much less drag. RedBull still has it.

[godlameroso]

High rake car will also experience much greater change in ride height with fuel weight. By it's very nature high rake car sees the rear squat a lot to bleed off downforce at speed. Thus the high rake philosophy is one where maximum downforce is generated at lower speeds and as the rear squats drag and downforce are reduced. Getting the car to squat at the right amount at the right speed range is probably tricky. Because the chassis deforms and performs differently at different speeds, and also the ride height changes which causes the downforce to work differently at different speeds.

Perhaps the car works better in the race because the ride height is moved to a more useful range due to the fuel weight. Why it's hard to get the pace from the car when it's on fumes.

[TNTHead]

Quite interesting analysis of Palmer on the pre race incidents:
including an observation that VER just before his spin was syncing his gears.

[etusch]

What is those lights looking like terminator eyes.

[Marti_EF3]

Maybe thermal sensors??

[Manoah2u]

lazorsss to shoot the opponent.

[zibby43]

What is those lights looking like terminator eyes.
https://i.ibb.co/BV1PL1r/Ekran-Al-nt-s.jpg

They're basically equipment (brake blanking plates) to alter the brake ducts for wet sessions, as the brakes don't get into the correct temperature range. Need to close off the inlet some.

They have conspicuous markings so the crew members remember to take them out for dry sessions.

Back in the day, they'd just put some tape over the inlet.

[langedweil]

What is those lights looking like terminator eyes.
https://i.ibb.co/BV1PL1r/Ekran-Al-nt-s.jpg

Hmm .. a fully transparant wing !

[godlameroso]

We see here both drivers have finished their braking phase and have applied steering lock. The outside wheels begin loading, and weight transfers towards the rear as the brakes are released, raising the nose.

Suddenly.



Snap oversteer just as he's transitioning to power.

This behavior repeats itself throughout the lap, except Verstappen somehow drives around it.



The car is very good once the weight is shifted to the rear, in effect it's a car where you have to anticipate the corner more than usual. In that transition from braking to accelerating it's very skittish, but once the car has the weight transferred to the rear it's very planted. Car has a strong engine, good downforce to drag, good suspension, but some combination of things is leading to this instability.

Fixing it isn't easy because also the drivers start getting used to it, their brains adapt and become more sensitive to the bad behaviors. Then when you change something the driver once again has to adapt their brain, the sensitivity they were starting to develop gets dulled because of the change made in the car and although you've improved a bad behavior, the driver doesn't notice that it's any better because they have to re-adjust their perception.

The driver is part of the car, so when you develop the car you have to develop it with the driver as well, the driver has to adapt to the car just as much as the car has to adapt to the driver.

[ispano6]

High rake car will also experience much greater change in ride height with fuel weight. By it's very nature high rake car sees the rear squat a lot to bleed off downforce at speed. Thus the high rake philosophy is one where maximum downforce is generated at lower speeds and as the rear squats drag and downforce are reduced. Getting the car to squat at the right amount at the right speed range is probably tricky. Because the chassis deforms and performs differently at different speeds, and also the ride height changes which causes the downforce to work differently at different speeds.

Perhaps the car works better in the race because the ride height is moved to a more useful range due to the fuel weight. Why it's hard to get the pace from the car when it's on fumes.

Exactly, race trim is loaded with fuel and the rear is stable. The low fuel runs is when the car seems to suffer.

I agree the nose seems to lift and causes the instability. Looking at the leading edge of the cape the angle looks like it would generate lift, but given that's so obvious there must be some benefit that outweighs the potential decrease in downforce from channeling the air from the cape in such a way. Based on Max and Alex's feedback that the car understeers and leads into a spin, it seems the center of rotation or aerodynamic balance is too far forward at the tea tray and would be more neutral and toward the barge boards if it had lower rake.

[etusch]

https://files.catbox.moe/znkydr.jpg

We see here both drivers have finished their braking phase and have applied steering lock. The outside wheels begin loading, and weight transfers towards the rear as the brakes are released, raising the nose.

Suddenly.

https://files.catbox.moe/d482pf.jpg

Snap oversteer just as he's transitioning to power.

This behavior repeats itself throughout the lap, except Verstappen somehow drives around it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njz0_o7VK-w

The car is very good once the weight is shifted to the rear, in effect it's a car where you have to anticipate the corner more than usual. In that transition from braking to accelerating it's very skittish, but once the car has the weight transferred to the rear it's very planted. Car has a strong engine, good downforce to drag, good suspension, but some combination of things is leading to this instability.

Fixing it isn't easy because also the drivers start getting used to it, their brains adapt and become more sensitive to the bad behaviors. Then when you change something the driver once again has to adapt their brain, the sensitivity they were starting to develop gets dulled because of the change made in the car and although you've improved a bad behavior, the driver doesn't notice that it's any better because they have to re-adjust their perception.

The driver is part of the car, so when you develop the car you have to develop it with the driver as well, the driver has to adapt to the car just as much as the car has to adapt to the driver.

If I didn't see it wrong he just lost it last few turns. until that Verstappen is ahead of vettel. If they can find a solution I think there potantial to be close to Mercedes