[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[godlameroso]

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... rodynamik/

Star designer Adrian Newey believes he knows the cause of the misery. "We now know what works and what doesn't," confirms Marko. "From this basis, we continue to develop. We try to correct the errors as quickly as possible. That is why not all new parts come to the car in one go, but one by one, so that we can see if there is an error somewhere has crept in. "

"DAS system is off the table for now. We first have to sort out our chassis problems."

In Silverstone, Red Bull also has to fear the Racing Point. The copy of the car from last year is based on the same genes. Marko is not worried about the season. "We should be stronger there. You cannot implement the speed from the qualification in the race. And in terms of strategy, you are still not that far."

Thanks for sharing.

One other paragraph is also worth noting:
"In Austria, Red Bull suspected bending in the underbody. According to sports director Helmut Marko, however, this is only part of the truth. "After all the examinations, we can say that the dog is in the aerodynamics. There is something wrong with the inflow. Bending the parts is certainly a point, but the air flow also breaks off for other reasons. For example, because the copied Mercedes nose has been copied poorly."

Last sentence is in German is 'Zum Beispiel weil die kopierte Mercedes-Nase schlecht kopiert wurde'. German is not my native language but I suppose they are indeed pointing to the slim nose and cape, even admitting that their copy concept is not yet working well.

Curious to see if at Silverstone adjustments can be seen in this area!

The cape probably isn't channeling airflow properly to its intended target. I wonder what part of the floor is flexing

[mafeotul]

the gap at the end was 6 seconds and change. Plus 22 seconds for a pit stop, that's ~28 seconds. IIRC Hamilton pitted on lap 67?

So without the stop Hamilton would have finished roughly ~30 seconds ahead by the checkered flag.

30 second gap divided by 70 laps gives us ~.5 which is the average race pace gap.

What happens if that gap comes down by .3?

With a .2 sec average gap or less, Verstappen and Hamilton would be trading laps through the race.

Your math is assuming that Hamilton was extracting everything he has on his car and Red Bull can improve their pace in .3 seconds. I think Red Bull needs to improve their race pace around .5 per race lap in order to be as close as .2 per lap.

Of course we've seen that improvement estimations tend to be conservative, perhaps Mercedes has another tenth or two hidden on top of those .5 Some of that can be down to latent performance and some of that due to the car's own developments.

More than likely we have rarely seen the true pace of Mercedes, they were probably asked multiple times to tune down the engines. I think this quote of Marko is from the same article. "Marko is surprised: "Why does Mercedes so openly demonstrate its superiority? In our good years we didn't try to drive away so blatantly from the front in every race. The Mosley and the Bernie would have slowed us down immediately. Which happened enough times."

[GPR-A]

the gap at the end was 6 seconds and change. Plus 22 seconds for a pit stop, that's ~28 seconds. IIRC Hamilton pitted on lap 67?

So without the stop Hamilton would have finished roughly ~30 seconds ahead by the checkered flag.

30 second gap divided by 70 laps gives us ~.5 which is the average race pace gap.

What happens if that gap comes down by .3?

With a .2 sec average gap or less, Verstappen and Hamilton would be trading laps through the race.

While Max was under pressure from Bottas and driving as fast as the car can go, Lewis was cruising at the front. He always does that to protect his PU. Both Andy Shovlin and James Vowell have mentioned this in many of their debriefs. Yet, you take the difference on the face of it and project the deficit.

How does the gap comes down by 0.3? Would Mercedes be sitting idle when RB is bringing that gap down to 0.3? You keep posting 0.2 and 0.3 for the past couple of years and yet, that gap doesn't go away. At the end of the year, Mercedes shows a dominant pace when it reaches Abu Dhabi. More crucially this year, Mercedes have prevailed in Austria and Hungary by big margin, whereas in the past few years Mercedes has faced troubles and Red Bull took full advantage of it with their package.

Don't you think it's time to look things differently and stop being overtly optimistic without any reasoning? When was the last time Red Bull had such aero problems (with their own admission) that they had to revert to their Preseason testing package to do a comparison? Up next is Silverstone which brings the best of Mercedes chassis to the fore. While RB is currently scratching their head to identify the problem and fixing it, Mercedes is probably optimizing their car and bolting more upgrades, isn't it? That might just increase the gap between the two teams.

Currently, RB's only strength is Max. He is getting the best out of the struggling package. But he is also frustrated with the unpredictability of the car and psychologically, from the highs of last year that generated so much optimism for him for 2020, the sudden struggles this year will affect him badly.

[NL_Fer]

Once the point margin has been built at 2/3 of the season, Mercedes already shift their resources to next years car. Redbull seems to come close on the season finally, but Mercedes is already 0.5 ahead on the new car.

[Bill]

Redbull package strength is not only Max Honda pu should also be given credits. We saw in track were the role of the pu is minimal Rbr were bang midfield the rain saved them in a track where overtaking is difficult. Max goes into races guaranteed a podium if he was using a Renault or Ferrari pu Racing point will be ahead .if Max didn't retire in first race we will be looking at three men within five point points of each other despite Rbr being 5 tenth behind.
If they find 0.3 tenth the championship will come alive.

Redbull saw Max loosing the car during testing I wonder how did they come to the conclusion that they were championship material.i quess Mercedes pu realibility issues and suspension issues gave them the wrong impression.the agency to solve drivability issues is being instigated only now Max and Albon are not given the right development direction

[etusch]

I think we need to consider that this is not base gap but because of issues Redbull suffering and how much it cost to Redbull is matter. what if it cost 0.5 and they just sort it out ?
It is obvious that mercedes has speed advantage but this gap is not gap Redbull need to close in normal condition. But at the end this is the gap.
I hope I could said what I want to say.

[RedNEO]

The analysis from F1TV from rob smedley said Max in theory did a faster lap than Lewis if they had the same car. I need someone to find the clip because it also shows how in the last corner because of the downforce problem Lewis can get on the power much earlier and is already 10kph faster at the same point on the straight. I don’t think Marko was taking this into account or simply hadn’t seen the analysis when trying to predict the engine power difference. I don’t think it’s anything more than 1.5 tenths advantage Mercedes has over Honda imo.

[Bill]

I think some people overcomplicate things when they start talking a gps traces complex tools that only big teams have then you know they are trying to deceive.just look at sector times and speed traps .Beauty in simplicity every one was carrying maximum downforce.in Hungary sector 1 where power is important the top 10 in speed traps where only Honda and Mercedes cars midfield Renault and tail end Ferrari cars same can be said about sector times.you don't need phd to figure these out.

[ME4ME]

The analysis from F1TV from rob smedley said Max in theory did a faster lap than Lewis if they had the same car. I need someone to find the clip because it also shows how in the last corner because of the downforce problem Lewis can get on the power much earlier and is already 10kph faster at the same point on the straight. I don’t think Marko was taking this into account or simply hadn’t seen the analysis when trying to predict the engine power difference. I don’t think it’s anything more than 1.5 tenths advantage Mercedes has over Honda imo.

Lets get this straight. They showed an image of Verstappen being closer to the outside white line going into the last turn than Hamilton. Then after the concluding the analysis, based on merely that one pre-corner positioning Rosanna says: So theoretically if Max was in a Mercedes he'd be quicker than Lewis Hamilton around the Hungaroring. Smedley with a smirk on his face: quite possibly.

Really the main point that Smedley drives home in that piece is that Hamilton can go on the throttle much much earlier than Verstappen. Examples given are out of the slow chicane, and the final turn where although max has a higher minimum speed (165 vs Hamiltons 160 km/h), Hamilton hits full throttle much earlier to the extent that he is doing 221 km/h while Max is at 198 km/h at the DRS line which is just prior to the start/finish line.

[RedNEO]

The analysis from F1TV from rob smedley said Max in theory did a faster lap than Lewis if they had the same car. I need someone to find the clip because it also shows how in the last corner because of the downforce problem Lewis can get on the power much earlier and is already 10kph faster at the same point on the straight. I don’t think Marko was taking this into account or simply hadn’t seen the analysis when trying to predict the engine power difference. I don’t think it’s anything more than 1.5 tenths advantage Mercedes has over Honda imo.

Lets get this straight. They showed an image of Verstappen being closer to the outside white line going into the last turn than Hamilton. Then after the concluding the analysis, based on merely that one pre-corner positioning Rosanna says: So theoretically if Max was in a Mercedes he'd be quicker than Lewis Hamilton around the Hungaroring. Smedley with a smirk on his face: quite possibly.

Really the main point that Smedley drives home in that piece is that Hamilton can go on the throttle much much earlier than Verstappen. Examples given are out of the slow chicane, and the final turn where although max has a higher minimum speed (165 vs Hamiltons 160 km/h), Hamilton hits full throttle much earlier to the extent that he is doing 221 km/h while Max is at 198 km/h at the DRS line which is just prior to the start/finish line.

That was the main point I was trying to get at. I truly hope RB get on top of this aero issue because measuring the engine performance is too difficult. If they do, then silverstone will be the perfect place to see what is truly the real gap between the two. Obviously Mercedes is ahead but it will be interesting to see what the true gap is when both have cars they can trust through the corners.

[godlameroso]

the gap at the end was 6 seconds and change. Plus 22 seconds for a pit stop, that's ~28 seconds. IIRC Hamilton pitted on lap 67?

So without the stop Hamilton would have finished roughly ~30 seconds ahead by the checkered flag.

30 second gap divided by 70 laps gives us ~.5 which is the average race pace gap.

What happens if that gap comes down by .3?

With a .2 sec average gap or less, Verstappen and Hamilton would be trading laps through the race.

While Max was under pressure from Bottas and driving as fast as the car can go, Lewis was cruising at the front. He always does that to protect his PU. Both Andy Shovlin and James Vowell have mentioned this in many of their debriefs. Yet, you take the difference on the face of it and project the deficit.

How does the gap comes down by 0.3? Would Mercedes be sitting idle when RB is bringing that gap down to 0.3? You keep posting 0.2 and 0.3 for the past couple of years and yet, that gap doesn't go away. At the end of the year, Mercedes shows a dominant pace when it reaches Abu Dhabi. More crucially this year, Mercedes have prevailed in Austria and Hungary by big margin, whereas in the past few years Mercedes has faced troubles and Red Bull took full advantage of it with their package.

Don't you think it's time to look things differently and stop being overtly optimistic without any reasoning? When was the last time Red Bull had such aero problems (with their own admission) that they had to revert to their Preseason testing package to do a comparison? Up next is Silverstone which brings the best of Mercedes chassis to the fore. While RB is currently scratching their head to identify the problem and fixing it, Mercedes is probably optimizing their car and bolting more upgrades, isn't it? That might just increase the gap between the two teams.

Currently, RB's only strength is Max. He is getting the best out of the struggling package. But he is also frustrated with the unpredictability of the car and psychologically, from the highs of last year that generated so much optimism for him for 2020, the sudden struggles this year will affect him badly.

Maybe, it could be like any other year where RB takes a few races to get on top of the car.

I honestly think if the gap comes down you'll see things are closer than they appear. If you have enough pace to pull away while managing the race, it lets you not only save the engine, but also ERS. After a stint of being able to save ERS boost, you can pull a 1.2 or 1.3 second per lap gain until you pit where you can charge the ERS since you're slightly over fueled.

But! If you don't have the ability to pull away while managing things, suddenly you cannot build an ERS surplus. Your potential 1.2 second ultimate pace advantage can never be realized. Because you'll be using your ERS to defend and try to stave off the chaser. Plus you'll burn up your tires in the process as well.

So it's not over yet. Mercedes may not be toppled but they will get a challenge over the season. Silverstone is completely different than the previous two circuits. The average speed is higher, the corners are faster.

Naturally the RBR will lose out on braking, but will it lose out on slow corner acceleration? Austria showed us the RB is slightly faster in short slow hairpin like corners. It doesn't seem like RB is slower in the very high speed corners.

I will be worried however if they spin in the esses, if not I can see Verstappen guaranteed podium.

[ME4ME]

Naturally the RBR will lose out on braking, but will it lose out on slow corner acceleration? Austria showed us the RB is slightly faster in short slow hairpin like corners. It doesn't seem like RB is slower in the very high speed corners.

I recommend you watch the F1TV analysis with Smedley which we talked about above. The telemetry and Smedleys comments are the straight opposite of your findings. Apperently the Red Bull loses nothing against the Mercedes on braking. Corner exit, so traction and acceleration is an issue. Entry seems fine.

The one corner where Red Bull were quicker than Mercedes in Austria was turn3, which is a Verstappen corner if you'd ask me. He has a great line through there. Very tight at the apex. What we also clearly saw was that the Mercedes and even the Racing Point dominated Red Bull through turn 9 and 10 in Austria. So I think it's fair to say that high speed corners currently also are a weakness.

[godlameroso]

Naturally the RBR will lose out on braking, but will it lose out on slow corner acceleration? Austria showed us the RB is slightly faster in short slow hairpin like corners. It doesn't seem like RB is slower in the very high speed corners.

I recommend you watch the F1TV analysis with Smedley which we talked about above. The telemetry and Smedleys comments are the straight opposite of your findings. Apperently the Red Bull loses nothing against the Mercedes on braking. Corner exit, so traction and acceleration is an issue. Entry seems fine.

The one corner where Red Bull were quicker than Mercedes in Austria was turn3, which is a Verstappen corner if you'd ask me. He has a great line through there. Very tight at the apex. What we also clearly saw was that the Mercedes and even the Racing Point dominated Red Bull through turn 9 and 10 in Austria. So I think it's fair to say that high speed corners currently also are a weakness.

In the race the racing point couldn't keep up with the Red Bull. I wonder to what extent the fact that drivers have to lift and coast a little in the race helps mask the car's issue. Stroll had to 3 stop to be .2 seconds faster than Verstappen on his 2 stop, maybe Perez could do a little better?

[Zynerji]

Your math is assuming that Hamilton was extracting everything he has on his car and Red Bull can improve their pace in .3 seconds. I think Red Bull needs to improve their race pace around .5 per race lap in order to be as close as .2 per lap.

Of course we've seen that improvement estimations tend to be conservative, perhaps Mercedes has another tenth or two hidden on top of those .5 Some of that can be down to latent performance and some of that due to the car's own developments.

More than likely we have rarely seen the true pace of Mercedes, they were probably asked multiple times to tune down the engines. I think this quote of Marko is from the same article. "Marko is surprised: "Why does Mercedes so openly demonstrate its superiority? In our good years we didn't try to drive away so blatantly from the front in every race. The Mosley and the Bernie would have slowed us down immediately. Which happened enough times."

I remember Seb being 90 seconds ahead in several races. I'd actually like to see that comparison between Lewis and Seb. Who gave back the most time while leading under safety cars... I think Seb would win.

Anyway, I'm calling Seb back to RBR on a 2 year for 2021 just to sort out the 2022 car, and hopefully win another title before retiring.

[mafeotul]

Of course we've seen that improvement estimations tend to be conservative, perhaps Mercedes has another tenth or two hidden on top of those .5 Some of that can be down to latent performance and some of that due to the car's own developments.

More than likely we have rarely seen the true pace of Mercedes, they were probably asked multiple times to tune down the engines. I think this quote of Marko is from the same article. "Marko is surprised: "Why does Mercedes so openly demonstrate its superiority? In our good years we didn't try to drive away so blatantly from the front in every race. The Mosley and the Bernie would have slowed us down immediately. Which happened enough times."

I remember Seb being 90 seconds ahead in several races. I'd actually like to see that comparison between Lewis and Seb. Who gave back the most time while leading under safety cars... I think Seb would win.

Anyway, I'm calling Seb back to RBR on a 2 year for 2021 just to sort out the 2022 car, and hopefully win another title before retiring.

As long as the engine development is under freeze, and Mercedes keep the current advantage, i seriously doubt RedBull will built another challenger out of the box in the near future, unless some miracle happens. I mean, i have judged Ferrari for its failures, but fingers must be pointed at RBR as well, for consistently failing for 6 years now.