General Honda F1 Topic

[saviour stivala]

‘The exhaust limit rules – FIA article 23.3 sporting regulations - exhaust system hardware replacement’. Originally intended for 2021 rules but has been delayed for 2022, with the teams themselves pushing for it to stay fast-tracked for next season.
Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows how highly a guarded secret are the design property rights of the internal workings designs systems and processes used in the F1 PU.
Yet somebody makes 1+1 and says the answer he got is 3, and pushes-out the use by Honda of a ‘secondary’ combustion. Another adds another 1 and says the answer he got is 6, attributing the use by Honda of their ‘secondary’ combustion to the new FIA article 23.3 (exhaust limit rules’.
The facts are, the new exhaust hardware use rules are intended to stop teams spending a fortune trying to save tiny amounts of weight by using very expensive material. (Teams will be able to use (8) eight exhausts systems per season). The 2021 exhaust rules brings in-line the exhaust system with the PU rules and penalty systems.
Up to this point exhaust the exhaust system have been excluded from being part of the PU. Allowing customer teams to design and supply their own using materials with weight advantage irrespective of cost.
Exhaust systems were being replaced at every race in 2019. Mclaren replaced their exhaust system even between qualifying and the race under parc-ferme regulations.

[PlatinumZealot]

Measurements form the media say honda is only 28 horsepowerbehind. If this is true then it is the RedBullchassis that is severely lacking to Mercedes.

[McMika98]

Pretty clear to see the chassis is missing in action but the Honda engine gains is not there. Just look at alpha tauri as a reference. Maybe they have improved race pace but they are behind Renault in quali modes.

[PhillipM]

The worst bit is everyone else has already had their Covid shutdowns and Honda has theirs to come yet, which means they're going to lose development time to the others from here on in.

[etusch]

Pretty clear to see the chassis is missing in action but the Honda engine gains is not there. Just look at alpha tauri as a reference. Maybe they have improved race pace but they are behind Renault in quali modes.

I can not say anything about Renault vs Alpha Tauri but Redbull can not use properly that mode ( if it is good enough or not) because of car behaviour when it pushed

[McMika98]

Mate just look at mini sector time on the straight of all cars for a good reference on power. Last year the cheating horse used to paint purple across these sector. This year Renault are up there with Merc.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes Renault looks increasingly punchy on the straights this year. Ferrari might consider rebranding on of these engines for 2021. Lol. How many tokens is that?

[Revs84]

The worst bit is everyone else has already had their Covid shutdowns and Honda has theirs to come yet, which means they're going to lose development time to the others from here on in.

Not really, since any performance development can only be used for the 2021 season engine. If I'm not mistaken, oil and fuel upgrades are limited too, although not sure to which extent.

Unless, of course, they can roll out some 'reliability' updates that can deliver added performance. Something which we can expect all PU manufacturers to do in Belgium.

I would expect such performance gains to be quite minimal. Any major gains would be quite sketchy in my opinion.

[ispano6]

The AUG 5th deadline for stated changes to homologated parts is upon them, and I'm certain the exhaust and ERS development were discussed as a pathway for next year's PU improvements along with accommodating the 2021 exhaust limit rule which has probably affected Honda's trick secondary combustion.

What is this and where was it mentioned ?

Which part? The 2021 exhaust limit rule or Honda's "secondary" combustion (sorry it's probably not called this)? Regarding Honda's adjustment to the 2021 regulation, it was an interview with Asaki where he mentions the exhaust component limitations for the upcoming season and how to extract more power without destroying the exhaust. No one from Honda has outwardly mentioned anything about "secondary" combustion while it's been noticed that the distinct (audible) characteristic is subdued in the homologated power unit. It may still be that Tanabe wants longevity and efficiency but Marko probably wants to demonstrate maximum performance regardless of damage and then prove that changes to homologated components are justifiable with reliablity, not an increase in peak performance. I believe new materials were being considered and tested for the exhaust and this was already something in development and is on going. I'll try to find the article.

[PhillipM]

The trouble with these power units is they run below max output for the majority of the time so you can get a decent amount more performance just from 'reliability' upgrades that let you run closer to the limit or run parts hotter, etc.

[ispano6]

‘The exhaust limit rules – FIA article 23.3 sporting regulations - exhaust system hardware replacement’. Originally intended for 2021 rules but has been delayed for 2022, with the teams themselves pushing for it to stay fast-tracked for next season.
Anybody with an ounce of common sense knows how highly a guarded secret are the design property rights of the internal workings designs systems and processes used in the F1 PU.
Yet somebody makes 1+1 and says the answer he got is 3, and pushes-out the use by Honda of a ‘secondary’ combustion. Another adds another 1 and says the answer he got is 6, attributing the use by Honda of their ‘secondary’ combustion to the new FIA article 23.3 (exhaust limit rules’.
The facts are, the new exhaust hardware use rules are intended to stop teams spending a fortune trying to save tiny amounts of weight by using very expensive material. (Teams will be able to use (8) eight exhausts systems per season). The 2021 exhaust rules brings in-line the exhaust system with the PU rules and penalty systems.
Up to this point exhaust the exhaust system have been excluded from being part of the PU. Allowing customer teams to design and supply their own using materials with weight advantage irrespective of cost.
Exhaust systems were being replaced at every race in 2019. Mclaren replaced their exhaust system even between qualifying and the race under parc-ferme regulations.

Apologies, didn't know what to call it.
BTW I was talking about two different things that were likely discussed during the meeting, about Aug5th deadline AND 2021 development. I never said the deadline was for the 2021 development, you seemed to have added those two together on your own.

[Juzh]

Measurements form the media say honda is only 28 horsepowerbehind. If this is true then it is the RedBullchassis that is severely lacking to Mercedes.

28 HP is not an insignificant amount and is worth at least 0.5s in silverstone, probably more. Obviously chassis is lacking as well in peak performance, but lets not completely disregard engine deficiencies, as they were clearly more exposed on this track.

I also don't think renault has jumped honda. They're fast on the straights because they run very low downforce config, to the point they weren't even flat trough copse, kinda like ferrari. They have minimum 1s worse race pace compared to red bull in normal circumstances, so lets not get carried away.

[Wouter]

Measurements form the media say honda is only 28 horsepowerbehind. If this is true then it is the RedBullchassis that is severely lacking to Mercedes.

That is information from one site, an Italian site. Only in Qualifying 28HP, in the race it is less.

[63l8qrrfy6]

The AUG 5th deadline for stated changes to homologated parts is upon them, and I'm certain the exhaust and ERS development were discussed as a pathway for next year's PU improvements along with accommodating the 2021 exhaust limit rule which has probably affected Honda's trick secondary combustion.

What is this and where was it mentioned ?

Which part? The 2021 exhaust limit rule or Honda's "secondary" combustion (sorry it's probably not called this)? Regarding Honda's adjustment to the 2021 regulation, it was an interview with Asaki where he mentions the exhaust component limitations for the upcoming season and how to extract more power without destroying the exhaust. No one from Honda has outwardly mentioned anything about "secondary" combustion while it's been noticed that the distinct (audible) characteristic is subdued in the homologated power unit. It may still be that Tanabe wants longevity and efficiency but Marko probably wants to demonstrate maximum performance regardless of damage and then prove that changes to homologated components are justifiable with reliablity, not an increase in peak performance. I believe new materials were being considered and tested for the exhaust and this was already something in development and is on going. I'll try to find the article.

Yes what is this secondary combustion?
So if no one from Honda has mentioned it how do we know about it ?

[Tommy Cookers]

.... Yes what is this secondary combustion?
So if no one from Honda has mentioned it how do we know about it ?

won't there always be some 'unburnt' fuel (even gas eg methane) burning in the exhaust system upstream of the turbine ?