[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[godlameroso]

It amazes me how Max must fight 2 Mercedes at the same time (2 different strategy types) and still come out victorious.
2 vs 1 is very unfair and that makes Max victories special. (compared to other pilots(?)...
Red Bull needs another driver to pressure Mercedes.

I think what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than Alonso's runner up in 2012 because he at least had Massa helping him, plus McLaren was taking points away from Red Bull keeping Alonso in contention. This year Verstappen has split the Mercedes after 4 races and a DNF with just the team and himself. If the Red Bull takes a step on the chassis front and closes the gap to Mercedes it'll be game on. To win the championship with a slower car, against two Mercedes is no small feat when one of the Mercedes drivers is a generational talent. It would cement Verstappen as one of the greatest drivers, Red Bull as one of the greatest teams in F1 history, and powered by Honda.

This season sort of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare, Red Bull is just steady, not faster than Mercedes, but very steady. Mercedes is very fast in short bursts, but cannot sustain that kind of pace for long.

[Hoffman900]

It amazes me how Max must fight 2 Mercedes at the same time (2 different strategy types) and still come out victorious.
2 vs 1 is very unfair and that makes Max victories special. (compared to other pilots(?)...
Red Bull needs another driver to pressure Mercedes.

I think what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than Alonso's runner up in 2012 because he at least had Massa helping him, plus McLaren was taking points away from Red Bull keeping Alonso in contention. This year Verstappen has split the Mercedes after 4 races and a DNF with just the team and himself. If the Red Bull takes a step on the chassis front and closes the gap to Mercedes it'll be game on. To win the championship with a slower car, against two Mercedes is no small feat when one of the Mercedes drivers is a generational talent. It would cement Verstappen as one of the greatest drivers, Red Bull as one of the greatest teams in F1 history, and powered by Honda.

This season sort of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare, Red Bull is just steady, not faster than Mercedes, but very steady. Mercedes is very fast in short bursts, but cannot sustain that kind of pace for long.

I don't agree with that. Most of the time the Mercedes are so far out front, they are just cruising. No need to go faster than you need to.

Mercedes has won every single race so far on pace. Max has gotten two runner up finishes at the expense of Valteri 1) making a mistake (jump the start) 2) tire exploding.

Red Bull knows they don't have the pace, so it's coming down to creative strategy calls. This week the FIA, imo, directed Pirelli to make it more interesting via the tire compounds. This screams WWE wrestling / NASCAR, but good for Redbull for building a car that doesn't eat tires and everyone was dealt the same hand. However, other than this weekend, Max would have had third places if it wasn't for Valteri's misfortunes, including the weekend Max blew up.

[SAEED]

It amazes me how Max must fight 2 Mercedes at the same time (2 different strategy types) and still come out victorious.
2 vs 1 is very unfair and that makes Max victories special. (compared to other pilots(?)...
Red Bull needs another driver to pressure Mercedes.

I think what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than Alonso's runner up in 2012 because he at least had Massa helping him, plus McLaren was taking points away from Red Bull keeping Alonso in contention. This year Verstappen has split the Mercedes after 4 races and a DNF with just the team and himself. If the Red Bull takes a step on the chassis front and closes the gap to Mercedes it'll be game on. To win the championship with a slower car, against two Mercedes is no small feat when one of the Mercedes drivers is a generational talent. It would cement Verstappen as one of the greatest drivers, Red Bull as one of the greatest teams in F1 history, and powered by Honda.

This season sort of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare, Red Bull is just steady, not faster than Mercedes, but very steady. Mercedes is very fast in short bursts, but cannot sustain that kind of pace for long.

This year Verstappen seems to have a Red Bull that is in no man's land between Mercedes and the other teams. So, he can almost always be in a position to capitalize on any Mercedes slip up. This wasn't the case for Alonso. To capitalize he needed more people to slip up. As for no support from team mate, since a gulf also exists between Mercedes and Red Bull, most of the cases Albon is of no use to Verstappen. May be during a few race weekends or if Red Bull was closer to the front, Albon would be of better use.

[damager21]

I have a theory. At the "British Grand Prix" there were two safety car periods. The 2nd one was for an extended period post Kyvat's crash

My sense is that Mercedes were lucky because in effect they had to drive with those tyres for a shorter duration because of which they did not experience as much tyre wear as the recent race

The issue may have got aggravated with no safety car and higher temperatures.

[Big Tea]

It amazes me how Max must fight 2 Mercedes at the same time (2 different strategy types) and still come out victorious.
2 vs 1 is very unfair and that makes Max victories special. (compared to other pilots(?)...
Red Bull needs another driver to pressure Mercedes.

I think what Verstappen is doing is more impressive than Alonso's runner up in 2012 because he at least had Massa helping him, plus McLaren was taking points away from Red Bull keeping Alonso in contention. This year Verstappen has split the Mercedes after 4 races and a DNF with just the team and himself. If the Red Bull takes a step on the chassis front and closes the gap to Mercedes it'll be game on. To win the championship with a slower car, against two Mercedes is no small feat when one of the Mercedes drivers is a generational talent. It would cement Verstappen as one of the greatest drivers, Red Bull as one of the greatest teams in F1 history, and powered by Honda.

This season sort of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare, Red Bull is just steady, not faster than Mercedes, but very steady. Mercedes is very fast in short bursts, but cannot sustain that kind of pace for long.

This year Verstappen seems to have a Red Bull that is in no man's land between Mercedes and the other teams. So, he can almost always be in a position to capitalize on any Mercedes slip up. This wasn't the case for Alonso. To capitalize he needed more people to slip up. As for no support from team mate, since a gulf also exists between Mercedes and Red Bull, most of the cases Albon is of no use to Verstappen. May be during a few race weekends or if Red Bull was closer to the front, Albon would be of better use.

There is much in this. He is so safe in 3rd that he can afford to take chances as if anything goes wrong, he is still in 3rd. Its a shame they can not get albon involved to cover off free tyre stops foe Merc, that would give them even more options.

[Wouter]

From MST live-ticker this afternoon:

Question to Motorsport-Total: I hope that Pirelli corrects this tire pressure down again, as it was the case in the first 4 races, otherwise Mercedes has a problem, because Pirelli must not interfere in the WRC.

MST: Another topic is tire pressure. In fact, Pirelli is going to lower it again significantly in Spain.
There, 23 psi at the front and 20.5 psi at the rear are mandatory.
For comparison: at the first Silverstone race it was still 25 and 21 psi, last weekend it was even 27 and 22 psi respectively.
This will please the teams who had problems with the tyres on the weekend.

Frage an Motorsport-total: Ich hoffe sehr dass Pirelli diesen Reifendruck wieder nach unten korrigiert , wie es bei den ersten 4 Rennen der Fall war sonst hat Mercedes ein Problem.Denn Pirelli darf sich im WM nicht einmischen.

Motorsport-total: Ein weiteres Thema ist der Reifendruck. Tatsächlich wird Pirelli diesen in Spanien wieder deutlich senken.
Dort sind 23 psi vorne und 20,5 psi hinten vorgeschrieben.
Zum Vergleich: Beim ersten Silverstone-Rennen waren es noch 25 und 21 psi, am vergangenen Wochenende sogar 27 respektive 22 psi.
Das wird die Teams freuen, die am Wochenende Probleme mit den Reifen hatten.

[rogazilla]

Not sure if that really solve the tire problem. They raised the PSI to prevent sidewall collapses. Now the pressure is lowered, no blister but the threat of tire destruct itself will still be a thing for teams like Merc.

[Hoffman900]

Not sure if that really solve the tire problem. They raised the PSI to prevent sidewall collapses. Now the pressure is lowered, no blister but the threat of tire destruct itself will still be a thing for teams like Merc.

It at least evens the playing field where the higher pressures resulted in Pirelli picking the winners and losers.

[Big Tea]

Not sure if that really solve the tire problem. They raised the PSI to prevent sidewall collapses. Now the pressure is lowered, no blister but the threat of tire destruct itself will still be a thing for teams like Merc.

It at least evens the playing field where the higher pressures resulted in Pirelli picking the winners and losers.

I suspect teams will have a contingency plan to do an extra stop now too

[dans79]

Not sure if that really solve the tire problem. They raised the PSI to prevent sidewall collapses. Now the pressure is lowered, no blister but the threat of tire destruct itself will still be a thing for teams like Merc.

It at least evens the playing field where the higher pressures resulted in Pirelli picking the winners and losers.

I suspect teams will have a contingency plan to do an extra stop now too

It might be like the 2013 race, when the vast majority of the grid did a 4 stopper.

[Big Tea]

It at least evens the playing field where the higher pressures resulted in Pirelli picking the winners and losers.

I suspect teams will have a contingency plan to do an extra stop now too

It might be like the 2013 race, when the vast majority of the grid did a 4 stopper.

I suspect (no expert though) the 'plan A' will be a 2 stop, but they will hold back enough tyres to be flexible, and possibly try to qualify on the hard if possible. It may even be a split with one car not going 100% for pole and playing a long game. Testing will tell.

As there is so much talk on tyres this week I put a link here incase some have not seen it




Not directly concerned with this weeks problem but interesting

[bill shoe]

Zooming out a bit from the excellent RB/Verstappen performance this weekend...

RB joined up with Honda starting in 2018 with Toro Rosa, and continued in 2019 by adding Red Bull themselves. So we are 3 years into this team/engine relationship. The long-term intention of all parties is surely to win World Championships rather than occasional races. How well is everyone contributing? Is the analysis below on-target?

Driver (Max Verstappen)- I'm not a fan due to his hyper-aggressive behavior around other cars, but I have to concede his current driving seems incredible and near-perfect. I can't really think of any criticism in terms of his ability to contend for World Championships.

Powertrain (Honda)- They are generally regarded as having the second-best powertrain. They are very close to Merc in race-pace, but a bit further back in qualy-pace. Overall they are very close to Mercedes and seem to be supporting Red Bull in every way you would expect from a top-tier powertrain supplier. They are adequately supporting RB's efforts to win World Championships.

Chassis (Red Bull)- A few seasons ago, when RB was having their disfunctional relationship with Renault, Helmut Marko famously sniffed that RB could win a Championship with 40 hp less than the competition, but not with 80 hp less than the competition. The underlying assumption was that RB had the best chassis in Formula 1. Don't know if it was true then, but it sure ain't true now. Red Bull has a chassis gap to Merc that is costing it world championships. When they go to chassis-sensitive circuits (powertrain un-sensitive circuits) like Hungary or Monaco, Merc usually still has the measure of them. RB has fallen in a rut of starting every...single...season with some fundamental chassis/aero problem that they need to solve. They have become experts at winning the "last 6 races of the year" championship, but they have never put a serious full-year challenge to Merc since the beginning of the current turbo era. Red Bull is underperforming on chassis, and that's what's losing them Championships. I have the impression that this hasn't really sunk in at RB, so I don't figure they will change.

[godlameroso]

From MST live-ticker this afternoon:

Question to Motorsport-Total: I hope that Pirelli corrects this tire pressure down again, as it was the case in the first 4 races, otherwise Mercedes has a problem, because Pirelli must not interfere in the WRC.

MST: Another topic is tire pressure. In fact, Pirelli is going to lower it again significantly in Spain.
There, 23 psi at the front and 20.5 psi at the rear are mandatory.
For comparison: at the first Silverstone race it was still 25 and 21 psi, last weekend it was even 27 and 22 psi respectively.
This will please the teams who had problems with the tyres on the weekend.

Frage an Motorsport-total: Ich hoffe sehr dass Pirelli diesen Reifendruck wieder nach unten korrigiert , wie es bei den ersten 4 Rennen der Fall war sonst hat Mercedes ein Problem.Denn Pirelli darf sich im WM nicht einmischen.

Motorsport-total: Ein weiteres Thema ist der Reifendruck. Tatsächlich wird Pirelli diesen in Spanien wieder deutlich senken.
Dort sind 23 psi vorne und 20,5 psi hinten vorgeschrieben.
Zum Vergleich: Beim ersten Silverstone-Rennen waren es noch 25 und 21 psi, am vergangenen Wochenende sogar 27 respektive 22 psi.
Das wird die Teams freuen, die am Wochenende Probleme mit den Reifen hatten.

So 1 PSI minimum starting pressure difference was enough to destroy the pace of the Mercedes?

[godlameroso]

Not sure if that really solve the tire problem. They raised the PSI to prevent sidewall collapses. Now the pressure is lowered, no blister but the threat of tire destruct itself will still be a thing for teams like Merc.

It at least evens the playing field where the higher pressures resulted in Pirelli picking the winners and losers.

Mercedes issue was with the rear tires, the minimum starting pressure in the rears was only 1 psi higher than in the first Silverstone race, and only lowering by .5 psi in this next round. Surely that half psi will make the difference between Mercedes destroying the field by a second a lap.

[zibby43]

From MST live-ticker this afternoon:

Question to Motorsport-Total: I hope that Pirelli corrects this tire pressure down again, as it was the case in the first 4 races, otherwise Mercedes has a problem, because Pirelli must not interfere in the WRC.

MST: Another topic is tire pressure. In fact, Pirelli is going to lower it again significantly in Spain.
There, 23 psi at the front and 20.5 psi at the rear are mandatory.
For comparison: at the first Silverstone race it was still 25 and 21 psi, last weekend it was even 27 and 22 psi respectively.
This will please the teams who had problems with the tyres on the weekend.

Frage an Motorsport-total: Ich hoffe sehr dass Pirelli diesen Reifendruck wieder nach unten korrigiert , wie es bei den ersten 4 Rennen der Fall war sonst hat Mercedes ein Problem.Denn Pirelli darf sich im WM nicht einmischen.

Motorsport-total: Ein weiteres Thema ist der Reifendruck. Tatsächlich wird Pirelli diesen in Spanien wieder deutlich senken.
Dort sind 23 psi vorne und 20,5 psi hinten vorgeschrieben.
Zum Vergleich: Beim ersten Silverstone-Rennen waren es noch 25 und 21 psi, am vergangenen Wochenende sogar 27 respektive 22 psi.
Das wird die Teams freuen, die am Wochenende Probleme mit den Reifen hatten.

So 1 PSI minimum starting pressure difference was enough to destroy the pace of the Mercedes?

It was one factor. Along with setup choice and track temperatures. But yeah, those details matter. Significantly.

The brake ducts on a modern F1 car can be worth up to 1 second per lap (minimum).

Why does such a small part have such a significant impact? Because the brake ducts have a major impact on tire performance. It's all about the tires in the Pirelli era.