FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[63l8qrrfy6]

I wonder how FIA are trying to justify this really. Even my wife's car has engine modes.
Next big thing will be carburettors and restrictor plates.

[dans79]

I don't see how they can force a rule change for a spa. Last time I checked any kind of rules change like that in season required unanimous approval of the teams.

[Big Tea]

I don't see how they can force a rule change for a spa. Last time I checked any kind of rules change like that in season required unanimous approval of the teams.

I think the whole thing is a victim of Covid. No news? lets invent some

[63l8qrrfy6]

That's what I thought - they do have a provision for exceptional circumstances though.
Horner's bitching can be hardly classed as exceptional.

[henry]

I have no idea how the FIA thinks it can ban "qualifying" modes, since the modes available to drivers cover all modes from "cruise and collect" through to "desperation banzai maximum of everything".
The trade-off for using more powerful modes is reduced engine and component life, and higher fuel consumption. The power unit suppliers can work out how many miles or km they can allow their drivers over a race weekend at any combination of modes, and then they can determine what to allow in qualifying.
We have seen some power unit suppliers in the recent past not have any "qualifying mode", either because the power unit is not mature enough or sophisticated enough to support it, or because the use of that higher mode would reduce power unit component life to a level that would result in reliability issues or the use of too many PU component sets, thus leading to penalties.
The days of banzai 2-lap qualifying engines that were thrown in the scrap bin after Saturday are long gone.
The sooner that F1 truly is cost-limited, with more open regulations, the better.

according to https://the-race.com/formula-1/special- ... ter-spain/ they propose

One theory is this will be enforced by requiring teams to use their qualifying modes for a percentage of the race that would not be achievable with the current peak performance setting because of the impact it has on engine life and battery management.

I guess they mean more than lap-on-lap negative state of charge for battery management? That's an interesting part really. Would the others here think that depleting the battery to zero over a lap (and associated regen mapping) be a PU mode that is ever used other than in qualifying and perhaps the last lap of a race?

The extreme ES duty cycle in qualifying is something I have been musing on. They potentially process 6MJ out of and 3MJ in to the ES. Much of this at very high power levels and hence C rates. It may be that efficiency levels are around 95% against 98% in the race. That 3% might require an extra 5 to 10kW of cooling. Otherwise the ES temps might rise and reduce efficiency more.

It is my belief that the amount of deployment of the ERS in the race depends on capacity and the efficiency of the ES. During the race excess capacity of the ES over the SOC limit of 4MJ is used to top up efficiency losses. More losses would mean lower ERS deployment for the whole race.

But I’m with @Mudflap, Mercedes will find a way of minimising the impact, either as he says or trimming just enough in qualifying to still outperform the competition.

[dans79]

I've also wondered if this isn't just some ludicrously stupid strong arm tactic to try and get all teams to agree and sign the new Concorde agreement.

[63l8qrrfy6]

according to https://the-race.com/formula-1/special- ... ter-spain/ they propose

One theory is this will be enforced by requiring teams to use their qualifying modes for a percentage of the race that would not be achievable with the current peak performance setting because of the impact it has on engine life and battery management.

I guess they mean more than lap-on-lap negative state of charge for battery management? That's an interesting part really. Would the others here think that depleting the battery to zero over a lap (and associated regen mapping) be a PU mode that is ever used other than in qualifying and perhaps the last lap of a race?


The extreme ES duty cycle in qualifying is something I have been musing on. They potentially process 6MJ out of and 3MJ in to the ES. Much of this at very high power levels and hence C rates. It may be that efficiency levels are around 95% against 98% in the race. That 3% might require an extra 5 to 10kW of cooling. Otherwise the ES temps might rise and reduce efficiency more.

It is my belief that the amount of deployment of the ERS in the race depends on capacity and the efficiency of the ES. During the race excess capacity of the ES over the SOC limit of 4MJ is used to top up efficiency losses. More losses would mean lower ERS deployment for the whole race.

But I’m with @Mudflap, Mercedes will find a way of minimising the impact, either as he says or trimming just enough in qualifying to still outperform the competition.

Agreed, there is also an optimal SOC range (typically 10-50% or so for charge) that gives best efficiency. In race since most laps are SOC neutral they spend more time at an average SOC that is close to optimal which is not the case on a qualy lap.

The assumption is that the battery capacity is not massively oversized as to always be in an optimal SOC range.

[basti313]

Special qualifying modes could be banned after Spain.

Peak qualifying engine modes could be outlawed from this year’s Belgian Grand Prix onwards, The Race understands.
The Race understands that teams have been informed a rule change could be rapidly implemented to ban such modes as of the Spa round in just over two weeks’ time.
It is possible that this change, which could have a major impact on the competitive order this season, may be pushed to the start of 2021 pending further discussion.
The rulemakers may be willing to postpone the application of this new rule until 2021 subject to other concessions being made, although it is unclear what these could be.

Mercedes has made it clear it is not ready to sign a new commercial agreement with F1, although it is understood that some progress has been made on that front since last weekend when the two sides appeared to have reached an impasse.

The deadline for final agreement on the new Concorde Agreement has been pushed to the end of August – the weekend of the Belgian GP.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/special- ... ter-spain/

So silly. It's like telling Usain Bolt he needs to run the 100 metres in flip flops just to give the others a chance.

Yet again it's punishing innovation and encouraging mediocrity. Why bother pushing to be the best when you can just whinge until someone slaps down a handicap on your competitor?

Things like this could really make engine manufacturers think genuinely 'Why am i bothering to spend this money in this sport if they aren't letting me show what my product is capable of?'

Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...

But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.

I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.

[El Scorchio]

Special qualifying modes could be banned after Spain.




https://the-race.com/formula-1/special- ... ter-spain/

So silly. It's like telling Usain Bolt he needs to run the 100 metres in flip flops just to give the others a chance.

Yet again it's punishing innovation and encouraging mediocrity. Why bother pushing to be the best when you can just whinge until someone slaps down a handicap on your competitor?

Things like this could really make engine manufacturers think genuinely 'Why am i bothering to spend this money in this sport if they aren't letting me show what my product is capable of?'

Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...

But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.

I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.

i agree that it's nice to have competition but how much do you want to neuter the top team in order to do so? Whatever you do the best resourced and best run teams will still make the best cars. It's not their fault their engine is better, and while i get that there's the questions of how much money do you want to throw at trying to catch up, it's a bit pathetic for other manufacturers to just give up instead of trying. F1 is all about pushing the boundaries and finding new limits. By slapping a cap on things if you do it too well, where's the incentive to do that any longer?

And where do you go after doing this with the engines? The Merc will probably still be the top car because the engine is just better, or they find a workaround, and nothing is solved. So you start restricting other things and then end up where no one bothers doing R+D any more because anything they discover that makes their car the best will be banned so as not to upset the other teams.

Imagine in this restricted engine scenario if Ferrari had developed the best aero- do you then tell them they have to saw some parts off the car because it's not fair on the others?

I just hate the idea of punishing innovation and the best work. There just becomes less and less incentive to do any of it because it's just a waste of time and money and then the sport dies- if not in actuality then at least in spirit. It's nice to see close and competitive racing, but not by cutting the legs off the fastest runner. You should seek to fly yourself rather than try and shoot others out of the air.

[Sieper]

When looking at the F1 I always look at the long term movement of teams opposed to eachother. Since 2016 RBR (and certainly Ferrari) have constantly crept closer to Merc. Then when Ferrari made a giant leap for me that was a red flag. Apparently that was also a real red flag. Now this winter Mercedes has also made a giant leap, especially in qualy pace. The gap is as large (if not larger but OK, RBR is also falling short themselves) as in 2016.

Might it be that there plays more in the background? Like when Ferrari was unwilling to give in, suddenly the very last race they get checked and have 5kg more fuel as declared. If FIA is being lead around the block and they know it, but not precisely how, they maybe a some point say. OK if not left than right. No more qualy modes altogether. There is now certainly a tug of war. Mercedes took its 3rd client team (whilst refusing McLaren engines just 2 years ago), they will not sign the concorde agreement. For me something is up.

[dans79]

When looking at the F1 I always look at the long term movement of teams opposed to eachother. Since 2016 RBR (and certainly Ferrari) have constantly crept closer to Merc. Then when Ferrari made a giant leap for me that was a red flag. Apparently that was also a real red flag. Now this winter Mercedes has also made a giant leap, especially in qualy pace. The gap is as large (if not larger but OK, RBR is also falling short themselves) as in 2016.

Might it be that there plays more in the background? Like when Ferrari was unwilling to give in, suddenly the very last race they get checked and have 5kg more fuel as declared. If FIA is being lead around the block and they know it, but not precisely how, they maybe a some point say. OK if not left than right. No more qualy modes altogether. There is now certainly a tug of war. Mercedes took its 3rd client team (whilst refusing McLaren engines just 2 years ago), they will not sign the concorde agreement. For me something is up.

maybe that's what the crush them email was about, It was about crushing the FIA. That's a goal I could personally get behind.

[stevesingo]

It is obvious to all who watch F1 that there is a plethora of PU modes available. Q mode, Overtake, various strategies for fuel consumption/power balance, safety car, VSC on and on. How on earth are the FiA going to distinguish which modes are permissible? Banning our Q mode? OK. We have a new mode called max power and is available at any time during the event, it is not a Q only mode though. No siree.



The rules are explicit and all PU manufacturers know them; 100kh/hr and 110kg max for a race. They should leave it at that.



If it is one mode from Q onward, the most efficient engine will still be the most competitive. They will just leverage the efficiency against the start fuel weight/to overall race time instead of performance. The outcome will be the same. The most efficient PU will still be dominant.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I honestly thought they were going to use the qualy/race parc ferme clauses to drive this but instead the half arsed justification they provided does not hold any water imo.

They have all the sensors they need to monitor compliance. Changing engine modes should not affect what the sensors read.

As for the driver aids - sure, they could ask the manufacturers to reduce the engine settings to say 3 or so. Why does it have to be 1 mode ?
100 years ago drivers were adjusting spark advance and fuel mixture during GP races!

The letter referenced two FIA rules, with the first Article 2.7 of the 2020 technical regulations, headed "Duty of Competitor," and which reads as follows: "It is the duty of each competitor to satisfy the FIA technical delegate and the stewards that his automobile complies with these regulations in their entirety at all times during an Event.

"The design of the car, its components and systems shall, with the exception of safety features, demonstrate their compliance with these regulations by means of physical inspection of hardware or materials. No mechanical design may rely upon software inspection as a means of ensuring its compliance.

"Due to their nature, the compliance of electronic systems may be assessed by means of inspection of hardware, software and data."

The letter noted that the "multitude and complexity of modes being used make it extremely difficult for the FIA to monitor compliance with all the PU-related regulations and provisions in selected critical moments of the event."

The other rule cited is Article 27.1 of the sporting regulations, the often-used reference to drivers being required to drive the car "alone and unaided."

The letter noted that "the changes to ICE modes that are currently in force could potentially mean that the driver does not drive the car alone and unaided."

The letter then makes it clear that "in order to address the above concerns in the future, we will be requiring that during the qualifying session and the race, the PU should operate in a single mode," before confirming that a technical directive will follow before Spa.

[Big Tea]

Special qualifying modes could be banned after Spain.




https://the-race.com/formula-1/special- ... ter-spain/

So silly. It's like telling Usain Bolt he needs to run the 100 metres in flip flops just to give the others a chance.

Yet again it's punishing innovation and encouraging mediocrity. Why bother pushing to be the best when you can just whinge until someone slaps down a handicap on your competitor?

Things like this could really make engine manufacturers think genuinely 'Why am i bothering to spend this money in this sport if they aren't letting me show what my product is capable of?'

Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...

But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.

I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.

But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.

It is being used as an excuse by other teams

[MtthsMlw]

So much work that went in to the development of these modes goes down the drain.
Qualifying would also lose parts of its excitement. We get just 2 or 3 laps of engines turned up to 11 over a weekend.
Maybe the TD's will only affect the ICE. Kimi's comment is interesting "We don't have it. So it won't affect us."
Also how do you define "Qualifying mode"?