[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[GhostF1]

So people still moaning about Honda? I thought they had a good race today

This... I'm highly confused by some of the stuff people say on here. Alpha Tauri had a great race and Max had a brilliant one as well. People talking like the Honda is trash and causing all sorts of problems when its arguably the 2nd best on the field or worst case, indistinguishable from Renault.

So I think we can probably give them a break, they are clearly not an issue, well definitely not as much as people are implying on here. Horner and Marko think they have the second best PU (https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/65483/re ... vely-.html), and considering they aren't one to heap false praise on their partners, I believe them.
What is evident is RBR making good progress on sorting whatever disaster the chassis was at the start of the season, both drivers look and feel better in the car and in general its looks far better behaved. We'll see how Spa goes, but as far as the Honda slagging goes, how about we put our energy into maybe praising Mercedes' jump as opposed to bagging Honda's development curve... same effect, but closer to the truth.

[langedweil]

Actually Honda had more time to work through the shutdown for COVID since everyone else was handcuffed and is going to shutdown here coming up

EVERYONE knows this.
And that is a reason to stunt Honda's development? To be fair? Why not let Honda catch up 2 years of development? It will improve the show and I'm sure Mercedes will welcome the challenge since they don't want to win without a fight. It would be great for the fans too. But of course, it's Honda we're talking about...

Do you really think a 5% improvement will make that much of a difference?

Well, 5% on a topspeed of 300kph equals to a 15kph improvement. 5% more torque together with 5% better reliability .. I'd sign up for it.
But I don't sign up to anything (in this respect)

[GhostF1]

EVERYONE knows this.
And that is a reason to stunt Honda's development? To be fair? Why not let Honda catch up 2 years of development? It will improve the show and I'm sure Mercedes will welcome the challenge since they don't want to win without a fight. It would be great for the fans too. But of course, it's Honda we're talking about...

Do you really think a 5% improvement will make that much of a difference?

Well, 5% on a topspeed of 300kph equals to a 15kph improvement. 5% more torque together with 5% better reliability .. I'd sign up for it.
But I don't sign up to anything (in this respect)

Exactly, given the time delay in joining F1, their development rate has been potentially top of the field. Andy Cowell finds it mighty impressive https://f1i.com/news/365152-cowell-hond ... rrari.html

So yes, I'd take that 5% or maybe more from 2 extra years of dev time, that'd show surprising gains on track.

[diffuser]

Rumor has it merc didn’t even use the highest strat mode in qualifying, probably testing for the ban coming next week, power units will probably be ran harder in the race. Barring tire issues I doubt max will be anywhere near the mercs....

But that's totally ok, it just makes the PU's more prone to failures (God, I miss the mega-white-puff-blows).
Fix the mappings via Parc Ferme, and let the driver decide what to use when. And to spice it up, deny the pitwall to intervene with information.

Lol, but if they are not running them hard in qualy, they will be fine...

That probably had more to do with the tires than anything else. Spain, the more you take out of the tires in S1 and S2 the slower you're gonna be in S3. You come out of that straight 4-5 KPH faster you'll have to brake harder.

[holeindalip]

EVERYONE knows this.
And that is a reason to stunt Honda's development? To be fair? Why not let Honda catch up 2 years of development? It will improve the show and I'm sure Mercedes will welcome the challenge since they don't want to win without a fight. It would be great for the fans too. But of course, it's Honda we're talking about...

Do you really think a 5% improvement will make that much of a difference?

Well, 5% on a topspeed of 300kph equals to a 15kph improvement. 5% more torque together with 5% better reliability .. I'd sign up for it.
But I don't sign up to anything (in this respect)

I was jus throwing a number out there but they are probably into diminishing returns now along with Mercedes....

[Moore77]

Have any of you read this article?

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02/01 ... ince-2007/


Go read the article and form your own twisted opinion.

HONDA has more upgrades but is handcuffed from introducing them. If Mercedes is so all conquering then they should let Honda development be introduced. But no Honda can't use their development because others had covid shutdowns. And people say, "well that's not fair etc" and continue to dog Honda.

And for the MB fans who keep coming to this teams board to talk crap, just because Mercedes is all conquering doesn't make you all knowing.

Maybe you should read that article again:

FIA chief Jean Todt said at the time, “Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari knew for five years what engines they would need to use this year. Mercedes has simply done a better job. Such is motor sport.”

Ofcourse I did, I provided you the article.
Maybe you should do math and 2014-5 =2009... 2014-2007=7. The title is correct, Mercedes started developing in 2007. The Formula changes benefitted them. Honda's first hybrid engine was RA615H, but they did start developing earlier, so they were developing in 2013-2014 but didn't have real world running until 2015.

What were you trying to say? That Mercedes did not start developing earlier than others? The "Maths" here show at least 2 years. Also let me clarify my point: 7year head start from before the 2014 season.

Because Montezemolo said, Lauda said so...

[ispano6]

Actually Honda had more time to work through the shutdown for COVID since everyone else was handcuffed and is going to shutdown here coming up

EVERYONE knows this.
And that is a reason to stunt Honda's development? To be fair? Why not let Honda catch up 2 years of development? It will improve the show and I'm sure Mercedes will welcome the challenge since they don't want to win without a fight. It would be great for the fans too. But of course, it's Honda we're talking about...

Do you really think a 5% improvement will make that much of a difference?

You don't? What's 5% of 996hp? 49.8hp.

[ispano6]

Maybe you should read that article again:

Ofcourse I did, I provided you the article.
Maybe you should do math and 2014-5 =2009... 2014-2007=7. The title is correct, Mercedes started developing in 2007. The Formula changes benefitted them. Honda's first hybrid engine was RA615H, but they did start developing earlier, so they were developing in 2013-2014 but didn't have real world running until 2015.

What were you trying to say? That Mercedes did not start developing earlier than others? The "Maths" here show at least 2 years. Also let me clarify my point: 7year head start from before the 2014 season.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5F6057DC

Because Montezemolo said, Lauda said so...

So now Montezemolo and the late Niki Lauda are liars?

[ispano6]

Do you really think a 5% improvement will make that much of a difference?

Well, 5% on a topspeed of 300kph equals to a 15kph improvement. 5% more torque together with 5% better reliability .. I'd sign up for it.
But I don't sign up to anything (in this respect)

I was jus throwing a number out there but they are probably into diminishing returns now along with Mercedes....

Nope, Honda has more performance to EXTRACT from the PU, and other developments in the skunkworks. It's not a matter of what, it's a matter of when. Introduction of new fuels is also not allowed, hampering performance increases. This restriction to performance increases due to covid is a fallacy that hurts the sport than help it.

[Moore77]

Ofcourse I did, I provided you the article.
Maybe you should do math and 2014-5 =2009... 2014-2007=7. The title is correct, Mercedes started developing in 2007. The Formula changes benefitted them. Honda's first hybrid engine was RA615H, but they did start developing earlier, so they were developing in 2013-2014 but didn't have real world running until 2015.

What were you trying to say? That Mercedes did not start developing earlier than others? The "Maths" here show at least 2 years. Also let me clarify my point: 7year head start from before the 2014 season.

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5F6057DC

Because Montezemolo said, Lauda said so...

So now Montezemolo and the late Niki Lauda are liars?

The problem is, there is no way to know, in what context Niki said anything to Monty. It was Monty who got fed up with aero dominated rules era and was pushing hard for F1 to move to Engine based, mechanically dominated formula. Ferrari were losing big time to Red Bull due RB's aero superiority. When he saw his team failed to capitalize on the new engine formula, he was out their giving excuses like any layman on the internet forums, saying Niki told him that Mercedes was working on 2014 Hybrid engines from 2007!

This article is from November 6, 2011.
http://en.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport ... 63529.html

Montezemolo said on the official Ferrari website that it will only continue racing if changes to the rules are made, saying the current dependency on aerodynamics does not translate well to the company's road car section.

"What is not so good is that 90% of performance is now based exclusively on aerodynamics and another negative is that ours is the only sport where no testing is allowed. We are building cars, not helicopters, rockets or planes. Sure, we must not go back to the excesses of a few years ago, but neither should we be in a position where we can't provide opportunities for the youngsters we are bringing on in the Ferrari Driver Academy."

2007 was the second year of V8s and any man with a bit of brain, can't fathom a manufacturer (Mercedes) looking ahead for 2014, when they have just released a new engine and are in contention with their partner F1 team (McLaren) to contest for the titles. Mercedes didn't even intend to have an F1 team of their own back then! Why would Ron Dennis ask them or let them to focus on 2014, when he was their factory partner, desperate to win a title, which McLaren Mercedes hadn't won since 1998/99 (WCC/WDC)?

It was only in late 2009 that Norbert Haug persuaded Daimler board to buy Brawn GP, which was a small investment and together with Brawn, they pushed for RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement). Until 2012, Brawn believed that FIA will impose RRA and kept working with small budget, but then when Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren never agreed for RRA, he then convinced Daimler board to infuse more funds to achieve success.

That's when the big time hiring started and that is when Andy Cowell was given the full responsibility on HPP side with a push to build the new turbo hybrid engines with big bets on 2014. Brawn then hired Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Mark Elliott and Aldo Costa and was mocked by the F1 that, he is taking too many cooks. Actually, the foundation for the hybrid era success was all laid in 2012, when the team was going through their toughest phase on track. Incomes Niki Lauda as a share holder, who then pushed for Hamilton's hiring, in 2012!

It's like saying, since 2017, Renault has been working on building new engines for 2025, without even knowing what would be the need for that formula. In 2007, there wasn't even a thought given for 2009 KERS.

Here's is an eye opener for you.

This article is from Oct 08, 2010.
https://www.motor1.com/news/24176/engin ... yond-2012/

F1's engine makers are banding together against the FIA's plans to introduce a radically new engine formula in 2013.

It was previously believed the bulk of the teams backed the plans for turbocharged 1.6 litre 4-cylinder engines, in accordance with a 'greener' image.

But the sport's engine makers Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth have now come to the conclusion that Jean Todt's plans will cost EUR100 million to develop, and are lobbying to be able to base the new formula on the existing V8 engines.

[ispano6]

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5F6057DC

Because Montezemolo said, Lauda said so...

So now Montezemolo and the late Niki Lauda are liars?

The problem is, there is no way to know, in what context Niki said anything to Monty. It was Monty who got fed up with aero dominated rules era and was pushing hard for F1 to move to Engine based, mechanically dominated formula. Ferrari were losing big time to Red Bull due RB's aero superiority. When he saw his team failed to capitalize on the new engine formula, he was out their giving excuses like any layman on the internet forums, saying Niki told him that Mercedes was working on 2014 Hybrid engines from 2007!

This article is from November 6, 2011.
http://en.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport ... 63529.html

Montezemolo said on the official Ferrari website that it will only continue racing if changes to the rules are made, saying the current dependency on aerodynamics does not translate well to the company's road car section.

"What is not so good is that 90% of performance is now based exclusively on aerodynamics and another negative is that ours is the only sport where no testing is allowed. We are building cars, not helicopters, rockets or planes. Sure, we must not go back to the excesses of a few years ago, but neither should we be in a position where we can't provide opportunities for the youngsters we are bringing on in the Ferrari Driver Academy."

2007 was the second year of V8s and any man with a bit of brain, can't fathom a manufacturer (Mercedes) looking ahead for 2014, when they have just released a new engine and are in contention with their partner F1 team (McLaren) to contest for the titles. Mercedes didn't even intend to have an F1 team of their own back then! Why would Ron Dennis ask them or let them to focus on 2014, when he was their factory partner, desperate to win a title, which McLaren Mercedes hadn't won since 1998/99 (WCC/WDC)?

It was only in late 2009 that Norbert Haug persuaded Daimler board to buy Brawn GP, which was a small investment and together with Brawn, they pushed for RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement). Until 2012, Brawn believed that FIA will impose RRA and kept working with small budget, but then when Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren never agreed for RRA, he then convinced Daimler board to infuse more funds to achieve success.

That's when the big time hiring started and that is when Andy Cowell was given the full responsibility on HPP side with a push to build the new turbo hybrid engines with big bets on 2014. Brawn then hired Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Mark Elliott and Aldo Costa and was mocked by the F1 that, he is taking too many cooks. Actually, the foundation for the hybrid era success was all laid in 2012, when the team was going through their toughest phase on track. Incomes Niki Lauda as a share holder, who then pushed for Hamilton's hiring, in 2012!

It's like saying, since 2017, Renault has been working on building new engines for 2025, without even knowing what would be the need for that formula. In 2007, there wasn't even a thought given for 2009 KERS.

Here's is an eye opener for you.

This article is from Oct 08, 2010.
https://www.motor1.com/news/24176/engin ... yond-2012/

F1's engine makers are banding together against the FIA's plans to introduce a radically new engine formula in 2013.

It was previously believed the bulk of the teams backed the plans for turbocharged 1.6 litre 4-cylinder engines, in accordance with a 'greener' image.

But the sport's engine makers Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth have now come to the conclusion that Jean Todt's plans will cost EUR100 million to develop, and are lobbying to be able to base the new formula on the existing V8 engines.

The article Monty said Niki told him was published in 2017. I haven't seen anything that refutes it. Your older articles are irrelevant to what Mercedes was doing in 2007. Mercedes fooled everyone by siding with the teams while secretly knowing they would have an edge.

"Lauda recently confessed to me that Mercedes were already working [on their hybrid engine] since 2007 and that’s why they so adamant during the negotiations to introduce V6 engines from 2014"

[Moore77]

So now Montezemolo and the late Niki Lauda are liars?

The problem is, there is no way to know, in what context Niki said anything to Monty. It was Monty who got fed up with aero dominated rules era and was pushing hard for F1 to move to Engine based, mechanically dominated formula. Ferrari were losing big time to Red Bull due RB's aero superiority. When he saw his team failed to capitalize on the new engine formula, he was out their giving excuses like any layman on the internet forums, saying Niki told him that Mercedes was working on 2014 Hybrid engines from 2007!

This article is from November 6, 2011.
http://en.espn.co.uk/ferrari/motorsport ... 63529.html

Montezemolo said on the official Ferrari website that it will only continue racing if changes to the rules are made, saying the current dependency on aerodynamics does not translate well to the company's road car section.

"What is not so good is that 90% of performance is now based exclusively on aerodynamics and another negative is that ours is the only sport where no testing is allowed. We are building cars, not helicopters, rockets or planes. Sure, we must not go back to the excesses of a few years ago, but neither should we be in a position where we can't provide opportunities for the youngsters we are bringing on in the Ferrari Driver Academy."

2007 was the second year of V8s and any man with a bit of brain, can't fathom a manufacturer (Mercedes) looking ahead for 2014, when they have just released a new engine and are in contention with their partner F1 team (McLaren) to contest for the titles. Mercedes didn't even intend to have an F1 team of their own back then! Why would Ron Dennis ask them or let them to focus on 2014, when he was their factory partner, desperate to win a title, which McLaren Mercedes hadn't won since 1998/99 (WCC/WDC)?

It was only in late 2009 that Norbert Haug persuaded Daimler board to buy Brawn GP, which was a small investment and together with Brawn, they pushed for RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement). Until 2012, Brawn believed that FIA will impose RRA and kept working with small budget, but then when Ferrari, Red Bull and McLaren never agreed for RRA, he then convinced Daimler board to infuse more funds to achieve success.

That's when the big time hiring started and that is when Andy Cowell was given the full responsibility on HPP side with a push to build the new turbo hybrid engines with big bets on 2014. Brawn then hired Bob Bell, Geoff Willis, Mark Elliott and Aldo Costa and was mocked by the F1 that, he is taking too many cooks. Actually, the foundation for the hybrid era success was all laid in 2012, when the team was going through their toughest phase on track. Incomes Niki Lauda as a share holder, who then pushed for Hamilton's hiring, in 2012!

It's like saying, since 2017, Renault has been working on building new engines for 2025, without even knowing what would be the need for that formula. In 2007, there wasn't even a thought given for 2009 KERS.

Here's is an eye opener for you.

This article is from Oct 08, 2010.
https://www.motor1.com/news/24176/engin ... yond-2012/

F1's engine makers are banding together against the FIA's plans to introduce a radically new engine formula in 2013.

It was previously believed the bulk of the teams backed the plans for turbocharged 1.6 litre 4-cylinder engines, in accordance with a 'greener' image.

But the sport's engine makers Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Cosworth have now come to the conclusion that Jean Todt's plans will cost EUR100 million to develop, and are lobbying to be able to base the new formula on the existing V8 engines.

The article Monty said Niki told him was published in 2017. I haven't seen anything that refutes it. Your older articles are irrelevant to what Mercedes was doing in 2007. Mercedes fooled everyone by siding with the teams while secretly knowing they would have an edge.

"Lauda recently confessed to me that Mercedes were already working [on their hybrid engine] since 2007 and that’s why they so adamant during the negotiations to introduce V6 engines from 2014"

That is what I call it, "Conspiracy Theory". One thing that I have learnt on these forums is that, you can argue and argue hard, but in the end, each individual will hold their position regardless of what evidences are produced, because for each one, the truth, simply is what they want to believe. I bet you did not bother even reading my entire post. Good luck.

[DChemTech]

So people still moaning about Honda? I thought they had a good race today

Most people aren't, but there still is a certain McLaren fan that finds it necessary to rant about Honda after every single race, regardless of the outcome. It's quite sad still being sour about the McLaren Honda affair after all this time, but I guess some people find it very difficult to let go. Pretty sure most people here put him on the ignore list anyhow.

[Sieper]

Moore, people here have asked just yesterday to keep it civil. You post your viewpoint, and put sentences like “only people with a brain”. So he who has not the same viewpoint as you has no brain, or is a purple unicorn. Not the worst insults but nonetheless, just refrain from doing so. Do you think you make anyone more susceptible to your view if you do that?

[Bill]

for all the pu talk personal as a fan i look forward to all power like Austria ,spa and silverstone . i know Rbr stand a better chance there than short track like Barcelona, Hungary all pu talk is a ruse .fia should bring back blown wheel nut complex wing