[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Sieper]

Guys.

That first stint hamilton backed Max into Bottas. This forcing Max to run in dirty air. Whilst saving his own tires. So there Max was “ closer” to pace than viable. But then Hamilton could extent making his next two stints shorter and thus quicker.

If Hamilton would have went for quickest pace from the start it might have meant Max would have finished closer. Ofcourse he did not, they had a golden opportunity to kill max his tires in stint1 and used it.

Pace difference is more a result of circumstances then just a numbers game. Lewis could finish even further ahead, if 25 is in hand more is in hand.

But next GP it might be closer. Newer PU onboard again, perhaps RBR can find best set-up, perhaps Albon can outqualify the Racing points (that will lose the qualy mode). If that rule will come in to play and if merc does not immediately find a way around it.

[Big Tea]

Guys.

That first stint hamilton backed Max into Bottas. This forcing Max to run in dirty air. Whilst saving his own tires. So there Max was “ closer” to pace than viable. But then Hamilton could extent making his next two stints shorter and thus quicker.

If Hamilton would have went for quickest pace from the start it might have meant Max would have finished closer. Ofcourse he did not, they had a golden opportunity to kill max his tires in stint1 and used it.

Pace difference is more a result of circumstances then just a numbers game. Lewis could finish even further ahead, if 25 is in hand more is in hand.

But next GP it might be closer. Newer PU onboard again, perhaps RBR can find best set-up, perhaps Albon can outqualify the Racing points (that will lose the qualy mode). If that rule will come in to play and if merc does not immediately find a way around it.

But so will Red Bull.

[Sieper]

And Renault. And if Ferrari still had a party the would now also be cordially uninvited.

It is about the difference in qualy mode that will make a difference.

[tangodjango]

Do you remember when I said Red Bull would be within .2 of Mercedes based on testing? Everyone thought I was nuts, that I was wrong, that I should be disrespected for my views, etc. But the data says I was right. Verstappen is within .2 in race pace.

What does the data say now? 66x0.2 ≠ 25 seconds eh? That too with pace to spare easily from the lead Mercedes?

No pace to spare for Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Verstappen did the same amount of pit stops, there were no safety cars, this is the true gap at the moment. It can vary from circuit to circuit depending on the circumstances. Red Bull has made a small gain on Mercedes, hopefully they can keep chipping away.

The pace gap from Bottas to Hamilton is roughly .2 - .3 per lap. The difference is enough for Verstappen to consistently beat Bottas. I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

More like 66-11(given Mercedes was just toodling around till then)=55. So adding 5-6 seconds for the time lost by staying out significantly longer than Verstappen it's more like 30/55 ~ 0.5 seconds per lap which means after all their upgrades specifically at Barcelona RBR were half a second of race pace from Hamilton. The only way Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton consistently was if his tires blew up/blistered every race or if they swapped cars.
Also it was amply clear Hamilton had pace to spare the only car that didn't between the two was Verstappen.

[tangodjango]

No pace to spare for Hamilton.

It'd be useful to know that, despite being 24 seconds ahead, Mercedes were pushing as fast as they could for the entire race. Could you share your evidence, please? Also, why did Verstappen let Hamilton regain the 4+ seconds Hamilton lost in pit stops?

I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

How much of the c. .5 of a second gap between them do you feel they need to chip away? Because I think the situation is worse that that.

1) Bear in mind that the .5 is purely race pace, Mercedes lead is significantly larger in qualifying so it's very likely that Hamilton will consistently out qualify Verstappen.
2) This means that Verstappen will need enough race pace to overcome being forced to run in Hamilton's dirty air for at least the first stint, if not more.
3) On many tracks, the overtaking delta is more than a second.

Therefore, to be confident Verstappen would be able to consistently over come that, what evidence can you share that Verstappen has a second in hand on Hamilton, purely on skill, knowledge and experience alone?

How dare you counter with facts and logic!!

[etusch]

And Renault. And if Ferrari still had a party the would now also be cordially uninvited.

It is about the difference in qualy mode that will make a difference.

If I am not wrong, from start of the era, only Merc had a good Q Mode and only Ferrari could reach that level years later and both of them did it with additional fuel(whatever it is ). Honda have been trying to bring Q mode for two years now (if I am not wrong ) and still can not achieve to do it at Merc level. (By the way, isn't it interesting that merc did everything right related with the engine/hybrid system and even Q mode from the very beginning of the era ? They didn't tried small turbo, they had tji and it was working flawless from start of first season etc. )
Some says that Q mode power comes from different and aggressive mapping etc. When we assume that every team has same electic power at flying lap, we are sure that all difference comes from ice. If different mapping is place where those extra horses come from, why honda or renault not doing it. Are they stupid ? If ferrari were doing it last year but can not do it this year, question is; why they can not do it now ? This question is more important when we consider that they were there when they were burning oil or more gassoline. They know how to do Q mode but they could not do it this year. Why ?
So what kind of engineering is it which mercedes is doing and doing right but others can not do? What is the knowledge that merc's 1000 engineer(example number ) know and apply very successfuly but other 2 team's 2000 engineers don't know, and another 1000 engineers know but can not apply?

[Revs84]

No pace to spare for Hamilton.

It'd be useful to know that, despite being 24 seconds ahead, Mercedes were pushing as fast as they could for the entire race. Could you share your evidence, please? Also, why did Verstappen let Hamilton regain the 4+ seconds Hamilton lost in pit stops?

I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

How much of the c. .5 of a second gap between them do you feel they need to chip away? Because I think the situation is worse that that.

1) Bear in mind that the .5 is purely race pace, Mercedes lead is significantly larger in qualifying so it's very likely that Hamilton will consistently out qualify Verstappen.
2) This means that Verstappen will need enough race pace to overcome being forced to run in Hamilton's dirty air for at least the first stint, if not more.
3) On many tracks, the overtaking delta is more than a second.

Therefore, to be confident Verstappen would be able to consistently over come that, what evidence can you share that Verstappen has a second in hand on Hamilton, purely on skill, knowledge and experience alone?

There is only one fundamental flaw with the situation you depicted for the future. As of next race, there will be no quali mode anymore and we still need to find out who will come out on top following this change.

In all probability, it will be Mercedes again, but until it happens, there is no evidence it will be... right?

[Big Tea]

And Renault. And if Ferrari still had a party the would now also be cordially uninvited.

It is about the difference in qualy mode that will make a difference.

If I am not wrong, from start of the era, only Merc had a good Q Mode and only Ferrari could reach that level years later and both of them did it with additional fuel(whatever it is ). Honda have been trying to bring Q mode for two years now (if I am not wrong ) and still can not achieve to do it at Merc level. (By the way, isn't it interesting that merc did everything right related with the engine/hybrid system and even Q mode from the very beginning of the era ? They didn't tried small turbo, they had tji and it was working flawless from start of first season etc. )
Some says that Q mode power comes from different and aggressive mapping etc. When we assume that every team has same electic power at flying lap, we are sure that all difference comes from ice. If different mapping is place where those extra horses come from, why honda or renault not doing it. Are they stupid ? If ferrari were doing it last year but can not do it this year, question is; why they can not do it now ? This question is more important when we consider that they were there when they were burning oil or more gassoline. They know how to do Q mode but they could not do it this year. Why ?
So what kind of engineering is it which mercedes is doing and doing right but others can not do? What is the knowledge that merc's 1000 engineer(example number ) know and apply very successfuly but other 2 team's 2000 engineers don't know, and another 1000 engineers know but can not apply?

This is the million dollar/pound /euro question.
If Merc were oil burning and getting the best result from it, would they shop say Ferrari for doing it and lose what they have.

If Merc have 1000 (hypothetical) HP and Ferrari have 975 (hypothetical) HP, and oil burning is worth 5%, then Merc get 50 HP and Ferrari get 48.75 HP out of it.

Now, to me, for the value gain of 1.25 HP it is worthwhile 'shopping' Ferrari, and both going back to the previous 975 and 1000 HP as it 'gains' them 25 HP advantage. (not really in numbers but you know what I mean)

If all, lets call it enhanced modes, have a similar value or rather have the same sum, the most powerful engine 'out of the box' will gain in comparison even if it loses in actual numbers.

[Pany]

No pace to spare for Hamilton.

It'd be useful to know that, despite being 24 seconds ahead, Mercedes were pushing as fast as they could for the entire race. Could you share your evidence, please? Also, why did Verstappen let Hamilton regain the 4+ seconds Hamilton lost in pit stops?

I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

How much of the c. .5 of a second gap between them do you feel they need to chip away? Because I think the situation is worse that that.

1) Bear in mind that the .5 is purely race pace, Mercedes lead is significantly larger in qualifying so it's very likely that Hamilton will consistently out qualify Verstappen.
2) This means that Verstappen will need enough race pace to overcome being forced to run in Hamilton's dirty air for at least the first stint, if not more.
3) On many tracks, the overtaking delta is more than a second.

Therefore, to be confident Verstappen would be able to consistently over come that, what evidence can you share that Verstappen has a second in hand on Hamilton, purely on skill, knowledge and experience alone?

How dare you counter with facts and logic!!

Improvement of Qmode is direct consequence of better reliability. No long term reliability? No super Qmode

[zibby43]

And Renault. And if Ferrari still had a party the would now also be cordially uninvited.

It is about the difference in qualy mode that will make a difference.

If I am not wrong, from start of the era, only Merc had a good Q Mode and only Ferrari could reach that level years later and both of them did it with additional fuel(whatever it is ). Honda have been trying to bring Q mode for two years now (if I am not wrong ) and still can not achieve to do it at Merc level. (By the way, isn't it interesting that merc did everything right related with the engine/hybrid system and even Q mode from the very beginning of the era ? They didn't tried small turbo, they had tji and it was working flawless from start of first season etc. )
Some says that Q mode power comes from different and aggressive mapping etc. When we assume that every team has same electic power at flying lap, we are sure that all difference comes from ice. If different mapping is place where those extra horses come from, why honda or renault not doing it. Are they stupid ? If ferrari were doing it last year but can not do it this year, question is; why they can not do it now ? This question is more important when we consider that they were there when they were burning oil or more gassoline. They know how to do Q mode but they could not do it this year. Why ?
So what kind of engineering is it which mercedes is doing and doing right but others can not do? What is the knowledge that merc's 1000 engineer(example number ) know and apply very successfuly but other 2 team's 2000 engineers don't know, and another 1000 engineers know but can not apply?

Good question. Not a straightforward answer, as there are many reasons, but one reason teams aren’t doing it (at the same level) is as follows: it’s tremendously hard on the engine. Honda was needing additional PU allocations, taking penalties, and using TR as a test bed as recently as last year.

The more robust/reliable your PU is, the harder you can run it.

The extreme maps are so hard on the engine that Wolff said if they stopped using their highest mode for 4 laps a weekend, they’d be able to run in a higher-than-normal race mode for 25 extra laps a race.

Merc used their lowest “quali” mode (the one they normally use for Free Practice quali sims, for their last runs in Q1, and first runs in Q2) throughout Barcelona Q2 and Q3.

I’m guessing it was to anticipate how large the gap would be if the clarification is issued (hasn’t been yet). Who knows if they also then ran more power in the race yesterday temporarily, but going forward, if the clarification is issued, then I imagine Mercedes will unleash maximum pace for longer stints at the beginning of the race.

Without the ability to switch engine modes to a lower setting in the race, they can instead just utilize lift-and-coast to regenerate energy and preserve the PU that way.

All manufacturers, including Honda and Ferrari, are going to have to pick a compromise mode that they can run during qualifying and all race. And because Merc have the most margin and class-leading efficiency, it may cost them 2-3 tenths of qualifying pace, but reward them with 25-30 more laps at 2 tenths faster than normal in race trim.

[Sieper]

It is not that straightforward. Yes Merc was spending some of its engine life in the party mode. They can now spend that during the race. They will be stronger in race. But not at a few critical moments. (Pulling gaps, inlaps, outlap, chasing someone on an alternative strategy) But the sum of what you can achieve sustained does not have to be the same as a brief limit. They switch it off above the finish line, hand on dial.

And not all the performance they have might be coming from reliability alone.

[etusch]

Merc's higher race mode usage which will be increased when they didn't use Q mode is not a good explanation why they can do so powerful Q mode and others can not. ( 6 years not a short time )

[Mchamilton]

No pace to spare for Hamilton.

It'd be useful to know that, despite being 24 seconds ahead, Mercedes were pushing as fast as they could for the entire race. Could you share your evidence, please? Also, why did Verstappen let Hamilton regain the 4+ seconds Hamilton lost in pit stops?

I'm confident Verstappen could consistently beat Hamilton if they chip away at the gap.

How much of the c. .5 of a second gap between them do you feel they need to chip away? Because I think the situation is worse that that.

1) Bear in mind that the .5 is purely race pace, Mercedes lead is significantly larger in qualifying so it's very likely that Hamilton will consistently out qualify Verstappen.
2) This means that Verstappen will need enough race pace to overcome being forced to run in Hamilton's dirty air for at least the first stint, if not more.
3) On many tracks, the overtaking delta is more than a second.

Therefore, to be confident Verstappen would be able to consistently over come that, what evidence can you share that Verstappen has a second in hand on Hamilton, purely on skill, knowledge and experience alone?

There is only one fundamental flaw with the situation you depicted for the future. As of next race, there will be no quali mode anymore and we still need to find out who will come out on top following this change.

In all probability, it will be Mercedes again, but until it happens, there is no evidence it will be... right?

According to various sources Mercedes already didn't use party mode in Spain and look how that turned out

[Big Tea]

Merc's higher race mode usage which will be increased when they didn't use Q mode is not a good explanation why they can do so powerful Q mode and others can not. ( 6 years not a short time )

%. If they have 50 hp more than others, they also get the % of that extra 50, compounded.

[Mchamilton]

Merc's higher race mode usage which will be increased when they didn't use Q mode is not a good explanation why they can do so powerful Q mode and others can not. ( 6 years not a short time )

The same reason as no other team have been able to create a chassis and aero package to the level of the Mercedes for the same period. More resource and clearly better ideas and engineering. Every other engine manufacturer has had to change their engine layout and had trouble with various components they're had to chase for significant periods of time that has hindered their progress as a whole.