This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Any link you can share on the battery coolant topic?
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(sorry for the chop, but not relevent)
A question that just popped into my head then deserves a foil hat.
Charging and discharging batteries? what happens to the HYDROGEN. I mean, its an explosive gas isn't it. They can not just dissipate it into the air, that would be dangerious
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
Something is in the bush. Before the Spanish GP, the FIA warned that after the Belgian GP, only one engine mode may be allowed for qualification and races. All manufacturers were asked to provide details about their ERS systems beforehand. Is it related or is someone suspected of having cheated? T he exact plan of the FIA is still unclear. So far there has only been one letter threatening that possibly only one motor mode will be allowed for qualification and races from the Belgian GP onwards. That would make the hot qualifying rounds with over 1,000 hp history. The world association justifies its plans with the fact that with the complex drive systems it is becoming increasingly difficult to prove whether someone is cheating or not. The Ferrari case has shown the FIA once again that 1,000 engineers are smarter than ten inspectors from the agency.
What exactly the FIA intends to reveal to the teams and engine manufacturers in a technical directive this week. Then it will also be determined whether it will stay at the Belgian GP or the action will be postponed to 2021. What is certain, however, is that all four engine manufacturers will have to upload detailed information about their ERS systems to the FIA server by August 21st. In the technical directive TD / 036-20 of August 4th, it is primarily about the auxiliary circuits of the energy recovery system.
Manipulation of the current measurement?
Apparently the association has a suspicion that one or more of them are not following the rules when it comes to energy management. The FIA Delegate's requests are too specific for a routine investigation. First of all, Ferrari, Honda, Mercedes and Renault are reminded of how energy management is defined in Appendix 3 of the Technical Regulations. One has especially kept an eye on the auxiliary circuits. Two sensors measure the energy flows into and out of the battery and MGU-K. And according to Article 5.2.5, they must transmit the necessary signals to the FIA data logger in order to be able to monitor that the energy flows are compliant with the rules.
Then the warning: Any measure or system invented to intentionally alter the DC electrical measurements to check the rules is considered a serious breach of the regulations. Apparently it still sounds like how Ferrari is said to have tricked the measurement of the gasoline flow rate last year. The signal from the sensor is said to have been manipulated in such a way that more gasoline could be injected than was reported to the FIA measuring device.
The rest of the text of the Technical Directive makes it clear where the FIA suspects possible traps. Namely at the interfaces between the high-voltage network and the auxiliary circuits with less voltage. The connections from the battery to various control units that monitor the ERS system are usually not connected to the high-voltage circuit. And that's exactly where it is obviously possible to disrupt or change the current measurement. That would have the same effect as Ferrari's alleged manipulation of the flow rate measurement. You could feed more power into the system via the MGU-K than the permitted 163 hp.
If necessary, also physical tests
Engine manufacturers must provide information about the ERS architecture by the end of this week. This includes drawings and three-dimensional CAD views of all auxiliary circuits that do not belong to the high-voltage circuit. In addition, insight into the diagrams of the electrical circuits that connect to the high voltage network is required. In addition, the minimum and maximum values of the current that flows in and out of the high-voltage circuit when the car is on the track or is in the garage.
If in doubt, physical checks will be carried out on the car. All engine manufacturers are clearly requested to be available for an investigation. The sudden distrust raises many questions. Either the FIA is actually groping in the dark, or one or more fish with the electric power in gray areas. This suggests that so far none of the four car companies has complained that the rules should be changed in the middle of the season. Normally that would have caused an outcry. However, it is also possible that the FIA uses the investigation of the ERS systems to justify its planned measures in engine mode.
After the GP Barcelona, Horner asked Toto why Bottas went 1 full second faster at one point in the race in sector 1 without DRS, but only with ERS.
Toto dismissed the question and started talking about something else.
The same could be seen at Hamilton in rounds 38, 39, 45 and 48.
This morning it could be read that the FIA has requested the ERS systems from the 4 engine manufacturers for a careful investigation.
See @Jaisonas his post.
I don't have sector times, so it would be great if people could share it.
I can't speak to Bottas without a more specific reference. For Hamilton, laps 38 and 39 were average laps in that stint. If he found a second in S1, then he lost it in the rest of the lap. Lap 45 is a quicker lap, c.5-6ths faster than his pace at that point but, again, if he found a full second, he loses a chunk of it later in the lap. Lap 48 is a 1:23.063, Lap 47 was a 1:22.149 and lap 49 was a 1:21.954. So if he went a full second faster in S1, he lost two seconds over the rest of the lap.
Oddly, on both laps 45 and 48, I'm able to get a rough S1 time based on the live timings. On lap 45, Bottas and Verstappen roughly hold station, so they are also gaining that full 1 second. On lap 48, Bottas holds station and Verstappen closes on Hamilton.
The Bottas comment from Horner seemed to be in relation to his stint on the Soft at the end. If so, the only lap he gained more than .37 seconds was lap 51. That lap, Verstappen spent Turn 6 until the start of the following lap being blocked by Kvyat (of all people).
For more detail of Horner / Wolfe, unless you are referring to a different incident, it was during the post-race congratulations beneath the podium and Sky F1 caught it on camera. The sounds isn't great but I think the transcript goes:-
Horner: Why was Valterri so slow at the end, on the red tyre?
Wolfe: I don't know. The Soft didn't function. Lewis said "Don't give me the Soft, give me the mediums, the Soft doesn't work."
Horner: Yeah. I thought he would come back on those red ones.
Wolfe: No.
Horner: Yeah, yeah.
Wolfe: He has one lap where he has full* (I can't make this word out but Wolfe is gesturing as if slowing down and it sounds like 'full') Harvesters-
Horner: And, er, one second down the straight. Unbelievable.
Wolfe: Yeah (nods)
Unless there is a second interaction (which there easily could be, I tend not to watch all of that stuff), then I can't find the incident Horner is referring to and Wolfe doesn't dismiss it.
Last edited by Wynters on 18 Aug 2020, 14:48, edited 1 time in total.
After the GP Barcelona, Horner asked Toto why Bottas went 1 full second faster at one point in the race in sector 1 without DRS, but only with ERS.
Toto dismissed the question and started talking about something else.
The same could be seen at Hamilton in rounds 38, 39, 45 and 48.
This morning it could be read that the FIA has requested the ERS systems from the 4 engine manufacturers for a careful investigation.
See @Jaisonas his post.
@wouter how can you have such a talk about holy merc without any proof?
The FIA has to allow PIrelli to run some real, meaningful testing. Not with old cars that don't represent the current state of the art, but current cars that stress the tyres as they are stressed in the races. Don't allow the teams to fudge the aero loads/stresses, but make them drive to real lap times in the tests. They're going to have to spend some money to reap the reward down the road (excuse the mixed-metaphor pun).
RedBull, Mercedes, Ferrari and any other team that wants to be there should have a car present, a proper driver with real pace, and then do some proper testing.
Time to get away from the current idea of forcing the pit stops by having under-performing tyres. One race, years ago where there was a lot of stops, is not the way to base the current provisions and that for future of F1 racing.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.
mudflap, even in that very text you refer it to still makes a mention of "possibly with help of engine modes". So even the author felt he couldn't leave that out and still be taken seriously. Now that first stint Lewis was imho not going slow because he was so fearful his tires wouldn't last as the author somehow comes up with. They were in the great position to make a pincer move on Max. Max ran very close to Lewis for like 11 or so laps. He had to as Bottas was pressuring him into there. Once Max (fearful of the undercut and with his tires gone) made the stop, that was when Lewis could up the pace and invest his "saved" rubber to extent the stint. Next 2 stints were thus shorter so he could ask more of his rubber in both stints compared to Max.
Sound strategy and I disagree with the reasoning from the author that it was just not knowing how long the tires would last, it was all thought up before the race. In fact, This scenario can happen on a lot of tracks (where it is hard to overtake, and certainly that is hard in a RBR on a merc on same compound of similar/same age). Impossible is a better word and Merc can play that out as they will have 2 cars that qualify up front.
After the GP Barcelona, Horner asked Toto why Bottas went 1 full second faster at one point in the race in sector 1 without DRS, but only with ERS.
Toto dismissed the question and started talking about something else.
The same could be seen at Hamilton in rounds 38, 39, 45 and 48.
This morning it could be read that the FIA has requested the ERS systems from the 4 engine manufacturers for a careful investigation.
See @Jaisonas his post.
@wouter how can you have such a talk about holy merc without any proof?
I don't quite understand what you want to ask me @Etusch.
Are you saying Horner would have proof?
no, Etusch is making a well meant joke about what is coming; you know that you will catch flak as you have no proof. It is always important to have proof as us regular F1 punters always have all kinds of proof documents laying around in our houses.
It is always important to have proof as us regular F1 punters always have all kinds of proof documents laying around in our houses.
Some of us have jobs that requires proof for everything. If you don't have proof of one form or another, you better make it blatantly clear it's just your personal opinion or you might quickly find yourself looking for a new job.
It is always important to have proof as us regular F1 punters always have all kinds of proof documents laying around in our houses.
Some of us have jobs that requires proof for everything. If you don't have proof of one form or another, you better make it blatantly clear it's just your personal opinion or you might quickly find yourself looking for a new job.