[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[etusch]

i waited many races before saying that but i really think the stubbornness of Newey is hurting the team big time now

If there was no Mercedes-Benz, Red Bull Racing would be dominating the championship... In 2010-2013, Mercedes were not competitive and you saw the result. Competition is relative. The Red Bull is still a good car.

I think Redbull's situation compared to Mercedes is well explained by second slverstone race. when they benefit more and longer from tyres it would be different.

[Wouter]

Well Max, how about your race? .

[tangodjango]

i waited many races before saying that but i really think the stubbornness of Newey is hurting the team big time now ,
first he start the season very far away then he start crawling back bit by bit so slowly and if the chassis gain performance its eats tyres for break fast this is very irritating his concept is very irritating , perhaps he need to direct his career to another things and give opportunity to another one , RBR should consider Newey position seriously , this car has more pace and as Horner said they spent a fortune on it.

I think Newey's leadership and Max and the strategy team (in the situations they can roll the dice) are what's keeping them relevant. As mentioned don't forget the transformation from the mediocre car in 2017 (a rule change formulated with a lot of Red Bull input) to probably the joint best chassis by the end of 2018 was largely due to Newey focusing more at Red Bull. Be careful what you wish for, without Newey there's a large chance they would fall back towards Renault and McLaren. It's probably the benchmark has never been higher in F1 along with perhaps reaching the limits of high rake development which stress correlation and cfd tools more.

[mem]

i admire Newey he is a Guru a beast but his stubbornness is unbelievable, what can you see in the high rake concept?
its not helpful , extracting performance seems harder day after day , why can't he go the low rake concept ?!! its better one as proven by mercs

I think Redbull's situation compared to Mercedes is well explained by second slverstone race. when they benefit more and longer from tyres it would be different.

the car need abnormality to perform better than the mercs ,in silverstone 2 the tyre pressure wasn't the normal set by the regulations.

[mem]

To be respectful to Newey, when he completely stepped aside in 2017, Red Bull churned out a donkey and they had to force him back into the team and the car started getting better. Gone are the days of one man show. It requires a strong organization, full of talented engineers at all levels to succeed against a team like Mercedes.

you are right , Newey more than 62 yo they need to provide him with a better structure with talented engineers with the courage to correct him support him with accurate numbers and exploiting hidden angles not just assistants , few days away Marko was saying what Newey say we believe in it if he say the concept is working so thats it.

[bigblue]

For what it's worth, here's Horner on this topic, https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/horn ... t/4864820/

But while lower rake cars like Mercedes and Racing Point are doing well, Horner thinks there is not actually much of a difference now between the different concept solutions.

“I think Mercedes have been raising and raising their rear ride height,” explained Horner, when asked if the high rake concept was now the wrong route for F1.

“If you look at how much it has increased over the last few years, it’s not a long way off where we are. So I would disagree with that comment.”

[McMika98]

James Key has done wonders with limited budget and just look at the development of Renault chassis after they poached Pat fry. Adrian is too old school and stubborn. Apart from the blown diffuse era he has always started from a lower base and outdeveloped by throwing resource. His ethos of designing the car is stark contrast to Key who is all about having a driveable car.
This year was supposedly the best winter and the midfield are within few tenths.

[mem]

bigblue well the car never for once been an ace from the get go it needs to hit the track then Newey start developing it while it eats tyre always as if all the winter gone in vain , perhaps whats moore 77 said is the answer which i just mentioned above you.

[tangodjango]

James Key has done wonders with limited budget and just look at the development of Renault chassis after they poached Pat fry. Adrian is too old school and stubborn. Apart from the blown diffuse era he has always started from a lower base and outdeveloped by throwing resource. His ethos of designing the car is stark contrast to Key who is all about having a driveable car.
This year was supposedly the best winter and the midfield are within few tenths.

What rubbish at their best Newey cars are always very drivable with sweet handling. Of course it needs a certain level of driver to fully exploit that which they more than have with Max. I firmly believe they can close the gap in 2021 and be much more competitive unless Merc pull more rabbits out of the hat.

[TNTHead]

For what it's worth, here's Horner on this topic, https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/horn ... t/4864820/

But while lower rake cars like Mercedes and Racing Point are doing well, Horner thinks there is not actually much of a difference now between the different concept solutions.

“I think Mercedes have been raising and raising their rear ride height,” explained Horner, when asked if the high rake concept was now the wrong route for F1.

“If you look at how much it has increased over the last few years, it’s not a long way off where we are. So I would disagree with that comment.”

It's true that difference in wheelbase isn't much anymore compared to mercedes. Still I think visually that we are still talking about two concepts, where Mercs is running a much stiffer rear suspension and lower back end. But how much is it nowadays. Is Horner correct in his statement or is he only playing it down for whatever reason?

As already stated in this thread a few weeks ago there are clear benefits with a high rake concept, especially if youre down on power which RB has been since the Vettel days. So I am not sure the problem is solved by just changing concepts. Btw, come 2022 we probably are talking different with the ground effect cars.

[Sieper]

Also, remember that some of the guys making these statements are usually not interested in these threads. More to be found at other teams.

[ME4ME]

you are right , Newey more than 62 yo they need to provide him with a better structure with talented engineers with the courage to correct him support him with accurate numbers and exploiting hidden angles not just assistants , few days away Marko was saying what Newey say we believe in it if he say the concept is working so thats it.

You know I also have my own moments of disappointment with the team, but those are some pretty big baseless accusations you're making there.

- Yes Newey might be 62, so what? Lots of engineers are in their 50s or 60s. Many of them very experienced and valuable to any tech-company. Take Rory Burns which Ferrari still consult even today.
- Newey created that structure himself when he build the team
- RB engineers are not talented? Based on what?
- No courage? Is there any quote whatsoever from any member of the team that supports that?
- All the teams are constantly working to gain accurate numbers which mirror reality and vice versa, they're doing their best, and actually still better than most teams.
- Plenty nice bits on the cars over the years, RB's entire senior engineering team aren't exactly "assistans".

Instead of just saying that all is wrong, have you ever considered that the concept might hold up but that it's the execution thats lacking? Something is going wrong in realizing their target, but thats true for most teams. Yes it's disappointing, but honestly large part of this is just frustration with the continued excellence of the Mercedes team.

[McMika98]

What rubbish at their best Newey cars are always very drivable with sweet handling. Of course it needs a certain level of driver to fully exploit that which they more than have with Max. I firmly believe they can close the gap in 2021 and be much more competitive unless Merc pull more rabbits out of the hat.

Gone are those days where they could put on the downforce and have a sweet car. The new regs have pushed towards a more efficient car as downforce levels are the highest ever in F1 history. That's where Redbull struggles, they have gone away from outboard loading wings and soon may have to ditch the high rake. Despite the tight rear packaging the car isnt as streamlined. In the renault days, they would run the skinniest of wings and be competitive.

[Sieper]

As they will be next week.

[mem]

you are right , Newey more than 62 yo they need to provide him with a better structure with talented engineers with the courage to correct him support him with accurate numbers and exploiting hidden angles not just assistants , few days away Marko was saying what Newey say we believe in it if he say the concept is working so thats it.

You know I also have my own moments of disappointment with the team, but those are some pretty big baseless accusations you're making there.

- Yes Newey might be 62, so what? Lots of engineers are in their 50s or 60s. Many of them very experienced and valuable to any tech-company. Take Rory Burns which Ferrari still consult even today.
- Newey created that structure himself when he build the team
- RB engineers are not talented? Based on what?
- No courage? Is there any quote whatsoever from any member of the team that supports that?
- All the teams are constantly working to gain accurate numbers which mirror reality and vice versa, they're doing their best, and actually still better than most teams.
- Plenty nice bits on the cars over the years, RB's entire senior engineering team aren't exactly "assistans".

Instead of just saying that all is wrong, have you ever considered that the concept might hold up but that it's the execution thats lacking? Something is going wrong in realizing their target, but thats true for most teams. Yes it's disappointing, but honestly large part of this is just frustration with the continued excellence of the Mercedes team.

ofcourse RBR one of the TOP GUNS, lets see the yearly pattern for RBR they always lack this particular half a second until the last third of the season they catch up when Mercedes shift the focus on next year car.
what that tells us ? RBR can be a world beater but what they need is widen their investment in the car , if Mercedes can generate more than 3 billion dollars from the F1 team commercially iam sure RBR can generate at least 2 thirds of that money beside Aston martin will leave the team and a new title sponsor will come in with new money
simply RBR need to pour more investments to close this aweful half a second from the get go not after 10 races.
so after rethinking its not Newey nor the high rake concept its how much investments you throw on the car so YES indeed Newey need more engineers because his current team can't exploit all aspects of the car.
RBR got a generational talent in their hands now in MAX they better not waste him in vain coz i assure you he will jump the mercs chance as soon its available,if RBR won't take serious actions to close that half second.