[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[McMika98]

The issue is the chassis more than the engine. Despite the higher downforce clearly seen by S2 pace, they struggled with tyre wear. With the outboard loading they will struggle to get low drag configuration in the upcoming circuits like Monza. Last year Renault outqualified Max in Monza, this year I think even Mclaren and Toro Rosso might outqualify him. As I said previously there isn't a type of corner the car stands out. Also with the softer tyres its a bit of a leveller as in if they go too fast then the tyres wear out so they have to slow down to almost midfield pace or risk losing tyres.

[Sieper]

I think that is what drives Honda most, no failures. Also honda wanted this week extension for the qualy ban to dyna run the engines. Honda will want to prevent failures at all cost.

[dxpetrov]

The issue is the chassis more than the engine. Despite the higher downforce clearly seen by S2 pace, they struggled with tyre wear. With the outboard loading they will struggle to get low drag configuration in the upcoming circuits like Monza. Last year Renault outqualified Max in Monza, this year I think even Mclaren and Toro Rosso might outqualify him. As I said previously there isn't a type of corner the car stands out. Also with the softer tyres its a bit of a leveller as in if they go too fast then the tyres wear out so they have to slow down to almost midfield pace or risk losing tyres.

Completely incorrect and malicious - Max Verstappen, already facing grid penalties for replacing power unit components, did not set a time in the Q1 session.

[mem]

RBR are 100 or more employees shy of matching mercs , how many time they said this is the most expensive car we ever produced , just to find the usual deficit of 5 tenths or more which they can't close before 10 races inside the season , just when mercs start to shift focus to next car development , the extra employees will help to close the 5 tenths with out the need for 10 races, they must spend more money more investments or perhaps they are happy to be number 2 , i assure you at least Max is not.

[nzjrs]

RBR are 100 or more employees shy of matching mercs , how many time they said this is the most expensive car we ever produced , just to find the usual deficit of 5 tenths or more which they can't close before 10 races inside the season , just when mercs start to shift focus to next car development , the extra employees will help to close the 5 tenths with out the need for 10 races, they must spend more money more investments or perhaps they are happy to be number 2 , i assure you at least Max is not.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

[Juzh]

The issue is the chassis more than the engine. Despite the higher downforce clearly seen by S2 pace, they struggled with tyre wear. With the outboard loading they will struggle to get low drag configuration in the upcoming circuits like Monza. Last year Renault outqualified Max in Monza, this year I think even Mclaren and Toro Rosso might outqualify him. As I said previously there isn't a type of corner the car stands out. Also with the softer tyres its a bit of a leveller as in if they go too fast then the tyres wear out so they have to slow down to almost midfield pace or risk losing tyres.

Completely incorrect and malicious - Max Verstappen, already facing grid penalties for replacing power unit components, did not set a time in the Q1 session.

Albon was 0.5s up on his own Q3 (correction, he was up on his Q2 lap, he didnt set a lap in q3 after he had to lift and then didnt set another lap due to traffic jam) time before he had to lift for RAI crash. Given that verstappen is universally at least 0.3-0.5s faster than albon it's not completely mad to say he would fight for pole even, let alone scrapping it out with renaults lol.

[tangodjango]

The issue is the chassis more than the engine. Despite the higher downforce clearly seen by S2 pace, they struggled with tyre wear. With the outboard loading they will struggle to get low drag configuration in the upcoming circuits like Monza. Last year Renault outqualified Max in Monza, this year I think even Mclaren and Toro Rosso might outqualify him. As I said previously there isn't a type of corner the car stands out. Also with the softer tyres its a bit of a leveller as in if they go too fast then the tyres wear out so they have to slow down to almost midfield pace or risk losing tyres.

Completely incorrect and malicious - Max Verstappen, already facing grid penalties for replacing power unit components, did not set a time in the Q1 session.

Albon was 0.5s up on his own Q3 time before he had to lift for RAI crash. Given that verstappen is universally at least 0.3-0.5s faster than albon it's not completely mad to say he would fight for pole even, let alone scrapping it out with renaults lol.

I think Red Bull will be a factor at Monza especially if Mercedes continue to struggle with their lowest downforce configuration as Mark Hughes has speculated. However Renault might be a podium threat. They might decide to sacrifice some engine life for a podium shot because that's probably their best chance this year.

[Juzh]

Yes, fully agree. But here is SPa (and certainly next week in Monza) that doesn’t count as heavy as it normally does.

But, I think the Renault party mode is also more potent than Honda so let’s see where Renault actually stands after qualy next week.

It will be a very hard to predict weekend anyway. And it is justitie first no qauly mode weekend anyway. Let’s see what happens.

Agreed. Renault's quali mode seems to be a pretty strong one at some circuits, as for how potent, I'm not sure, I find it hard for us to distinguish between Honda and Renault now but Honda seem to have a good edge right to the finish line on race days. But at low downforce tracks where the Renault chassis excels

I would now say renault has a slight but meaningful edge over honda in quali trim. It's not a decisive difference, but it's there to be seen. Im looking mainly at mclaren since renault's chassis is just too much on the slippery side, 2019 ferrari style almost, mclaren is more balanced.
Another clue is renault and mclarens lack of race pace (compared to verstappen), which surely must come in part from PU performance as I very much doubt RB as a car magically becoming better over night in parc ferme. As verstappen said a race or two ago: "we're lapping people we're barely beating in quali".

[Lock2nl]

Yes, fully agree. But here is SPa (and certainly next week in Monza) that doesn’t count as heavy as it normally does.

But, I think the Renault party mode is also more potent than Honda so let’s see where Renault actually stands after qualy next week.

It will be a very hard to predict weekend anyway. And it is justitie first no qauly mode weekend anyway. Let’s see what happens.

Agreed. Renault's quali mode seems to be a pretty strong one at some circuits, as for how potent, I'm not sure, I find it hard for us to distinguish between Honda and Renault now but Honda seem to have a good edge right to the finish line on race days. But at low downforce tracks where the Renault chassis excels

I would now say renault has a slight but meaningful edge over honda in quali trim. It's not a decisive difference, but it's there to be seen. Im looking mainly at mclaren since renault's chassis is just too much on the slippery side, 2019 ferrari style almost, mclaren is more balanced.
Another clue is renault and mclarens lack of race pace (compared to verstappen), which surely must come in part from PU performance as I very much doubt RB as a car magically becoming better over night in parc ferme. As verstappen said a race or two ago: "we're lapping people we're barely beating in quali".

If the Renault chassis is that bad they would not have survived the long hard tyres stint with a low downforce setup (=less wing). My guess is they found extra downforce from the floor and diffuser. If that is correct, they should show an improved pace after Monza as well.

[Juzh]

Agreed. Renault's quali mode seems to be a pretty strong one at some circuits, as for how potent, I'm not sure, I find it hard for us to distinguish between Honda and Renault now but Honda seem to have a good edge right to the finish line on race days. But at low downforce tracks where the Renault chassis excels

I would now say renault has a slight but meaningful edge over honda in quali trim. It's not a decisive difference, but it's there to be seen. Im looking mainly at mclaren since renault's chassis is just too much on the slippery side, 2019 ferrari style almost, mclaren is more balanced.
Another clue is renault and mclarens lack of race pace (compared to verstappen), which surely must come in part from PU performance as I very much doubt RB as a car magically becoming better over night in parc ferme. As verstappen said a race or two ago: "we're lapping people we're barely beating in quali".

If the Renault chassis is that bad they would not have survived the long hard tyres stint with a low downforce setup (=less wing). My guess is they found extra downforce from the floor and diffuser. If that is correct, they should show an improved pace after Monza as well.

Renault's chassis is mediocre as seen in spain just a few weeks ago. Mercedes also struggled with tyres and that car was far and above the best in twisty bits. If anything cars with worse cornering performance fared better with tyres in spa.

[Sieper]

nobody said Renault is bad, mediocre, yes. because they are exclusively good at low drag circuits. SOo yes, in Monza they might do well, I fully expect them to do so. Unless the qualy pace is lost due to the upcoming ban? If they indeed have more to loose then Honda and Ferrari (ok, mmmh) powered cars.

[mem]

RBR are 100 or more employees shy of matching mercs , how many time they said this is the most expensive car we ever produced , just to find the usual deficit of 5 tenths or more which they can't close before 10 races inside the season , just when mercs start to shift focus to next car development , the extra employees will help to close the 5 tenths with out the need for 10 races, they must spend more money more investments or perhaps they are happy to be number 2 , i assure you at least Max is not.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Actually, Newey shouldn't complain. Red Bull plays with Mercedes and Ferrari in the 300 million euro plus league and is one of the privileged teams. Nevertheless, there are also differences in the premium class of Formula 1. Around 1,000 people work in the chassis area at Mercedes and Ferrari. At Red Bull there are almost 800.

Newey: “We have 125 people in the aerodynamics office. Mercedes almost double. The output is automatically higher. ”Red Bull is slowly beginning to realize that this arms race can only lead to misery. Because from 4th place even the principle of hope doesn't help anymore.

And the current cars prevent good racing on the racetrack, for several reasons.

For example, because the aerodynamics have become too extreme so that overtaking has become a feat. Because cars that are far too heavy strain the tires and brakes so much that they overheat after several laps of attack. Because the current generation of engines forces engineers to remotely control the pilots. Because the drivers in the race are constantly busy managing the tires, the brakes, the fuel consumption and the energy balance.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... niger-cfd/
this article by Michael Schmidt 03/11/2018 after 2 years RBR still lacking the manpower to raise their output to Mercedes level.

got it ?

[langedweil]

Here's a novel thought; Mercedes, Honda and Renault are pretty evenly matched as power units. Merc may have the most power, but it is likely less than 30hp, Renault and Honda seem indistinguishable to me. What makes the difference is the chassis and aero. The recipe for Redbull to catch merc is to match their chassis/ aero performance. Renault, Mclaren and the rest of the midfield cars including Racing Point can't match the Redbull chassis/aero performance.

That's a way too easy type of thinking.
It's not just hp .. it's driveability, thermal efficiency, traction/pickup, durability etc. Even if peak power difference is 30hp, it's just more or less than that.
So, no .. it's not just about aero/platform/concept, it's about a package.

And while they now have some sort of a works status, they're lagging at least 5/6/7 years behind mercedes i that respect.

Which is exactly why Merc on current form will easily maintain their status come 2022; they can afford to invest almost full blown into that concept, as they have such an advantage at the moment (ie for 2020/2021)

[nzjrs]

got it ?

I understand the numbers, I don't understand the meaning you want to convey. That because the car costs more every year, every year is a more expensive car? That every year that merc improves RB improves too?

[mem]

got it ?

I understand the numbers, I don't understand the meaning you want to convey. That because the car costs more every year, every year is a more expensive car? That every year that merc improves RB improves too?

mate its realy simple , no matter how RBR boast about their most expensive developed car it will lack to Mercedes as long they lack the manpower to exploit all its potentials which lead to the never ending 5 tenths deficit as been said by
NEWEY

We have 125 people in the aerodynamics office. Mercedes almost double. The output is automatically higher.

all RBR doing now is trying to out smart mercs occasionally , they even could of beat mercs in SPA if they put a smaller rear wing , still won't be enough so their aerodynamics department need more manpower, being skint won't help them.
they need to spend more money smartly , they will have new title sponsor and have their commercial earnings.