Is she on the Red Bull program? I presume she is already in the Honda Formula Dream program since you mentioned her here.
she is not.JordanMugen wrote: ↑30 Aug 2020, 07:26Is she on the Red Bull program? I presume she is already in the Honda Formula Dream program since you mentioned her here.
She's 14 now but no she isn't in the Red Bull young driver program. Not sure why you would jump to that conclusion.JordanMugen wrote: ↑30 Aug 2020, 07:26Is she on the Red Bull program? I presume she is already in the Honda Formula Dream program since you mentioned her here.
I'm not sure they really want 13-year-olds racing in FIA F3 or FIA F2 though. So it will be quite some time before she graduates to the FIA series and then potentially F1.
thank youispano6 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2020, 00:15So that is where the advantage is?
Asaki: Well with the turbo, we think we were behind before, but we surpassed them last year, but we did notice in Austria this year that their turbo did become better. It's neck and neck, back and forth between us it seems.
With regard to PU, the thermal efficiency seems like MB is (able to) go a little over/at the limit longer. (pushing it)
How can he gauge the performance of Mercedes in Austria when it’s well known mercedes were running detuned last year for cooling issues especially in Austria?mem wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 10:07thank youispano6 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2020, 00:15So that is where the advantage is?
Asaki: Well with the turbo, we think we were behind before, but we surpassed them last year, but we did notice in Austria this year that their turbo did become better. It's neck and neck, back and forth between us it seems.
With regard to PU, the thermal efficiency seems like MB is (able to) go a little over/at the limit longer. (pushing it)
this is a very valuable information , so their recently revised turbo need improvements , there is a room for a decent jump then...
Not to be trite, but the question of how to gauge a fellow team performance is ever-present - whether detuned or not.holeindalip wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:11How can he gauge the performance of Mercedes in Austria when it’s well known mercedes were running detuned last year for cooling issues especially in Austria?mem wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 10:07thank youispano6 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2020, 00:15So that is where the advantage is?
Asaki: Well with the turbo, we think we were behind before, but we surpassed them last year, but we did notice in Austria this year that their turbo did become better. It's neck and neck, back and forth between us it seems.
With regard to PU, the thermal efficiency seems like MB is (able to) go a little over/at the limit longer. (pushing it)
this is a very valuable information , so their recently revised turbo need improvements , there is a room for a decent jump then...
This is possibly why they think Mercedes took a bug jump over the winter when in fact they took their normal leap with a few extras....nzjrs wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:19Not to be trite, but the question of how to gauge a fellow team performance is ever-present - whether detuned or not.holeindalip wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:11How can he gauge the performance of Mercedes in Austria when it’s well known mercedes were running detuned last year for cooling issues especially in Austria?
It's certainly something that the teams are most qualified to answer because they will be doing continual modelling of their performance and of their competitors. I don't think a detuned state makes such a big difference compared to every other configuration possibility.
A big jump against a diminishing returns backgound could be considered a surprising occurance...holeindalip wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:27This is possibly why they think Mercedes took a bug jump over the winter when in fact they took their normal leap with a few extras....nzjrs wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:19Not to be trite, but the question of how to gauge a fellow team performance is ever-present - whether detuned or not.holeindalip wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:11
How can he gauge the performance of Mercedes in Austria when it’s well known mercedes were running detuned last year for cooling issues especially in Austria?
It's certainly something that the teams are most qualified to answer because they will be doing continual modelling of their performance and of their competitors. I don't think a detuned state makes such a big difference compared to every other configuration possibility.
That’s what I’m saying though, they were detuned last year and they didn’t take as big of a jump as what you think...nzjrs wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:54A big jump against a diminishing returns backgound could be considered a surprising occurance...holeindalip wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:27This is possibly why they think Mercedes took a bug jump over the winter when in fact they took their normal leap with a few extras....nzjrs wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:19
Not to be trite, but the question of how to gauge a fellow team performance is ever-present - whether detuned or not.
It's certainly something that the teams are most qualified to answer because they will be doing continual modelling of their performance and of their competitors. I don't think a detuned state makes such a big difference compared to every other configuration possibility.
He never said he gauged the performance of Mercedes in Austria last year. He probably measured it in the last races of last year and in the first race of this year(which was Austria) to see the improvements Mercedes made.holeindalip wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 14:11How can he gauge the performance of Mercedes in Austria when it’s well known mercedes were running detuned last year for cooling issues especially in Austria?mem wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 10:07thank youispano6 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2020, 00:15So that is where the advantage is?
Asaki: Well with the turbo, we think we were behind before, but we surpassed them last year, but we did notice in Austria this year that their turbo did become better. It's neck and neck, back and forth between us it seems.
With regard to PU, the thermal efficiency seems like MB is (able to) go a little over/at the limit longer. (pushing it)
this is a very valuable information , so their recently revised turbo need improvements , there is a room for a decent jump then...
I would like to see how Spec/Step 2 would perform, and I think Hamilton would too. Maybe he can make a strong case for allowing the PU manufacturers to bring whatever development they have already invested in. I can appreciate him putting pressure on the F1 bosses to remedy the tire situation, but the stunted development isn't doing F1 any favors.mem wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 10:07thank youispano6 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2020, 00:15So that is where the advantage is?
Asaki: Well with the turbo, we think we were behind before, but we surpassed them last year, but we did notice in Austria this year that their turbo did become better. It's neck and neck, back and forth between us it seems.
With regard to PU, the thermal efficiency seems like MB is (able to) go a little over/at the limit longer. (pushing it)
this is a very valuable information , so their recently revised turbo need improvements , there is a room for a decent jump then...
it seems the administration are ultra restricted to have a kaboom engine during a race week specially during the race since the Mclaren days Honda swallowed lots of dust , if spec 2 was ready they would use it instead of spec 1.ispano6 wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 21:09I would like to see how Spec/Step 2 would performmem wrote: ↑01 Sep 2020, 10:07thank youispano6 wrote: ↑28 Aug 2020, 00:15So that is where the advantage is?
Asaki: Well with the turbo, we think we were behind before, but we surpassed them last year, but we did notice in Austria this year that their turbo did become better. It's neck and neck, back and forth between us it seems.
With regard to PU, the thermal efficiency seems like MB is (able to) go a little over/at the limit longer. (pushing it)
this is a very valuable information , so their recently revised turbo need improvements , there is a room for a decent jump then...
"It's difficult to judge, but I think our power unit has reached a level where we can fight to some extent. But the competitors are very strong. I think we are still too far away."
Bringing the power - How Honda created a front-running F1 engine again
When Honda re-entered Formula 1 in 2015, they had a power unit which was woefully unreliable and massively under-powered. But after three tortuous years with McLaren, Honda was reborn within the Red Bull family. Having been the worst engine of the lot, they’re now second-best and capable of regular podiums - and at certain circuits they're potential winners. But how have they done it?
1. Resilience and refusing to give up
Honda took beating after beating during their time with McLaren, the Japanese manufacturer usually taking the brunt for disappointing results. You could visibility see the intense pressure they were under. But, as is their employees’ nature, they never complained. They simply battled to find a solution.
On joining forces with Toro Rosso, that pressure was released immediately. The atmosphere was completely different, and Honda were given more freedom. And they could also lean on their tough experiences since returning to Formula 1 for 2015.
“We have learned so many things from the McLaren days, those three years, and also that year from Toro Rosso was quite big for us to learn many things,” says Honda motorsport boss Masashi Yamamoto, as we speak via video call. “So I’m not surprised [by how quickly Honda have progressed], it was as planned. But one surprise, not in a good way for us, is that Mercedes is very strong this year.”
2. Stretching their legs, going aggressive
Honda’s progress has been rapid since severing ties with McLaren. They achieved a fourth place – their best since returning in 2015 – with Toro Rosso in only their second race together. From there, they pushed on focusing on reliability – while learning to work with the Red Bull family ahead of taking on the works team the following year.
In 2019, they were given freedom and went aggressive with development, bringing updates to the track as soon as they were ready, even if it mean grid penalties for exceeding allocations, because Red Bull and Honda had collectively agreed this was the best way forward. Turns out, it was. It’s that improved relationship that has been critical.
“The biggest factor [in our progress] is communication,” adds Yamamoto. “Both Honda and Red Bull is really open about their chassis and engine. We are very frank and we can say whatever we want to say. And Red Bull are very open and frank with us. It’s also quite important, that we can get direct feedback from drivers as well.
“Red Bull is also 100% committed to winning, and that is where all their focus lies, and that matches the aims of our company. We just want to win. They let us do whatever we need to do to produce a package that can win. That’s the biggest driving factor.
“We needed a certain amount of time to catch up, as we were three years behind in the development of the power unit. We have now reached that point – so now we can compete with our rivals.”
3. Aggressive winter development
On their debut with Red Bull, Honda scored their first podium since returning to F1. In race nine, they scored their first victory. Their second followed two races later. They ended 2019 with three wins, two seconds, and four thirds. A remarkable achievement.
Their winter development programme was similarly aggressive and they arrived in Barcelona with a power unit, which according to their rivals, was now on par with Renault and ahead of Ferrari – which had dropped back from first to fourth following the issuing of Technical Directives over the winter.
Since then, data suggests they are now ahead of Renault in a clear second. They introduced a so called party mode last year, and while the clampdown is expected to impact them like their rivals, those inside the paddock predict they will remain second in the pecking order.
Where does Yamamoto think they stack up? After a long pause, he says: “There are various factors we have to think about like downforce and drag, so it’s not simple. But from GPS data, we think Mercedes well ahead of us, and second, third and fourth is really close. During the race, we’re a little bit in front of Renault and Ferrari but it is close.”
It’s a remarkable turnaround for a engine manufacturer who were on the verge of pulling out of F1 after their miserable time with McLaren and were even debating their future before committing to Red Bull and AlphaTauri until the end of 2021.
“It is a relief that we are finally get good competitiveness against our rivals, but we want to support our drivers even more, especially now development during the season is not allowed,” he says. “With the management of PU and other things, we think we can support our drivers to have better races.”
4. Working efficiently
Honda’s future in Formula 1 beyond 2021 remains unclear, with the Japanese manufacturer’s board members still uncertain of their best course of action going forward.
They have taken heart from the new Concorde Agreement getting over the line as well as the revisions to the Sporting and Technical Regulations and introduction of new financial rules to make the championship more sustainable – although they do have some reservations.
“We think the budget cap a good thing but we are 50-50 regarding how we feel about limiting the development time because we started development of our PU later than others [by virtue of entering F1 once the new turbo hybrid era had already begun], which means we have had less time than our rivals,” says Yamamoto. “We now know we will have limitation of dyno time, but that’s the same for everyone. We have to find a way to work more efficiently but we believe our engineers can do it.”
Yamamoto played a significant role in convincing the board to extend their stay in F1 – and he will be critical during discussions which are currently taking place – and will continue over the next few months. “I communicate with the CEO directly and the board members support us for each race, they want us to win,” he adds. “And the more we have good results, the more likely we will continue in F1.”
What will it take to get Honda to commit to F1 beyond 2021? Yamamoto takes a long pause and then says: “Series champion.”
That might seem like a fanciful goal. But no one would have expected them to have had four victories and 11 more podiums in their first 28 races with Red Bull (They managed zero podiums in 60 attempts with McLaren). Maintain this trajectory and providing Red Bull improve their aero package, such success might not be too far away.
RACE SETUP
Returning to Italy with Scuderia AlphaTauri, we are reminded of all that we have achieved with our Faenza friends, on this, our fiftieth grand prix together. Historic, spectacular and incredibly fast – our main aim at Monza for the weekend will be tuning our power unit to get everything out of it around this speed dependent track. We have always received such a warm welcome arriving here, so not to have the masses of fans in the grandstands will certainly change the atmosphere from what we're used to. We’ll be pushing for a strong Sunday with both teams, as a worthy celebration for this special weekend.
TOYOHARU TANABE
TECHNICAL DIRECTOR, HONDA F1
After another podium finish in Spa, we come to the second race in this third and high-speed triple-header of the season, the Italian Grand Prix. The Monza track is all about high speed and low downforce and PU power output will once again be an important factor. This is the first race where the FIA’s new restrictions regarding the use of different PU modes comes into effect. In the past two weeks we have studied the implications of these changes in great detail. They are highly complex and therefore we have been in constant communication with the FIA to ensure that we comply fully with the new technical directive. We will not know exactly how this change will affect all the PU manufacturers until we can actually run on track. It is an important change, but our aim of always optimising the PU over the course of a race weekend remains the same. The Italian GP is the home race for Scuderia AlphaTauri and this will be the fiftieth Grand Prix of our partnership, a milestone in our history. Joining with what was then Scuderia Toro Rosso in 2018, meant starting the project from scratch and we have gradually made progress together, scoring two podium finishes last year. It’s not an exaggeration to say that the results we have achieved so far would not have been possible without their input. In this our third year together, everyone at Honda continues to enjoy working with this very welcoming team, full of Italian passion. The Italian Grand Prix will be an important race in many ways for us and we will be pushing as hard as usual to get the best possible result with both our teams.
