This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
They did not have to close and were allowed to continue working? Why?
My link to this old article was meant as a reply to langedweil as he stated that the budgetcap as of 2021 will come too late as top teams would already be working on the 2022 car in 2020 without a budgetcap. The article states that in 2020 it is not allowed to work on the 2022 car design so all work can only be done as of the budget cap era
The thing is the teams can hide a lot of 2022 work in generalized aero development for 2020/1.
That's what I meant .. not literally building the car, but everyone can have an enlightening whilst taking a dump, which can be thought out further, and even pulled through some sort of model. Stuff like DAS isn't invented in the boardroom with 54 engineers day-in-day-out. It's starts as a brainfart. With way more brilliant brainfarters than your competition, you'll get more, faster and better farts
In the post-qualifying driver conference, Bottas said that Mercedes used the usual qualifying modes as they did during other quali sessions in previous weekends. For me this means that they used the most aggressive qualifying mode they have.
Whether it's true or not, it's hard to tell. In reality, you never know if they already changed anything in the modes in preparation for Monza. With that said, why would they go with a lower mode and risk losing pole position?
As I mentioned having an opinion based on inference is perfectly fine. For me personally I think he trotted out the standard company line and I don't think that the amount of downforce they added would explain their low speed trap figures in q3 with party mode hence I tend to believe they probably didn't. Additionally why would Tanabe say they didn't use Q3 mode, he is generally pretty honest to the press. In any case as you say we simply don't know the truth one way or the other but I would be very happy if the gap lessens at Monza and we get some competitive action within 2-3 races.
I agree with you in the most part. What I can't agree with you on, is the fact that you present their 'low' speed traps as the main proof that they were not running their most powerful quali mode.
In Spa, both Mercedes and Red Bull ran with higher downforce due to prediction of rain. If you look at where the speed trap in Spa is, it's just before the Kemmel straight and before DRS activation zone. Hence, it's not a surprise that the speed at the speed trap was less than other cars running less downforce.
But guess what? While Mercedes did not have the highest speed traps, they did have the highest maximum speed. So even though they start the Kemmel straight with less speed, after DRS is activated, they still are achieving the maximum speeds. That surely must count for some impressive power modes no?
You're not looking at the right data. Here are quali speed traps
Merc doesnt gain anything from speed trap up to intermediate 1.
what do these speed traps say, Albon is speedier than Verstappen on each (all4) measuring point. Is 0,5 seconds behind. You can see who has a draggier set-up (I think) a bit when looking at all this data but telling any more from this data is just hard (to me). It does seem to prove that both Merc and RBR wet with high DF, much drag, and as Merc is just a bit faster (See lewis and max close to eachother at each data point) I think (like was also stated) went for even more DF. So they could use the superior engine power to push through it, Lewis is still up by 3 kmh on the two where they differ most.
Merc doesnt gain anything from speed trap up to intermediate 1.
What I understand from these data, there is small difference between cars and drivers even with same pu and with same car. So there must be different differentiators with them appart from pu
Yes, fully agree. But here is SPa (and certainly next week in Monza) that doesn’t count as heavy as it normally does.
But, I think the Renault party mode is also more potent than Honda so let’s see where Renault actually stands after qualy next week.
It will be a very hard to predict weekend anyway. And it is justitie first no qauly mode weekend anyway. Let’s see what happens.
Agreed. Renault's quali mode seems to be a pretty strong one at some circuits, as for how potent, I'm not sure, I find it hard for us to distinguish between Honda and Renault now but Honda seem to have a good edge right to the finish line on race days. But at low downforce tracks where the Renault chassis excels
I would now say renault has a slight but meaningful edge over honda in quali trim. It's not a decisive difference, but it's there to be seen. Im looking mainly at mclaren since renault's chassis is just too much on the slippery side, 2019 ferrari style almost, mclaren is more balanced.
Another clue is renault and mclarens lack of race pace (compared to verstappen), which surely must come in part from PU performance as I very much doubt RB as a car magically becoming better over night in parc ferme. As verstappen said a race or two ago: "we're lapping people we're barely beating in quali".
Think it is alot more complicated than you think.
Pretend the RBR Is fast but a handful to drive. Typically in that situation, the closer you get to the edge the harder it is to drive, the less confidence the drivers have in pushing. The higher risk they make a mistake. Come race day you dial back the lap times cause you're carrying more fuel, need to save the tires to get the tire change window, etc,etc. So they're just not as close to the edge on race day.
for the people that love arguing for the sake of argue.
every body noticed the drop in power in mercs in SPA except you
At the Belgian GP, however, a clear increase was to be seen. The gap in qualifying shrank. And on race Sunday Verstappen was able to keep up the pace at the top for a long time, although Spa, as a power track, is not normally one of Red Bull's preferred hunting grounds. https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... p-italien/
as i said , in previous qualy we had monsters gaps more than a full second even in Spain with strat 3 the gap was 8 tenths while in SPA with strat 2 it was 5 tenths only.
in the race from lap 15 safety car ending to lap 25 Max lost only 2.5 seconds to Hamilton thats 10 laps while kept his car in Bottas mirrors so he kept the pace with the 2 mercs , when his tyres starts to fail him, started to vibrate (as mentioned before RBR aero and chassis department lack 100 employees to mercs)
and he opted to start save his tyres or else he would definitely needed another pit to change tyres
remember Bottas engineer telling him it will be long stint.
thanks to the famous mclarenf-1 site
something else i noticed many times but particularly in Spain and in SPA no matter how heavy blistered Hamilton tyres it seems his pace doesn't drop or get affected while bottas pace does get affected i bet there is something illegal on Hamilton car.
so all in all and very bizarrely Mercedes didn't satisfy with their already superiority and decided to cheat with no absolutely need for that, which caused in the FIA to start investigation on ERS and banned the qualifying mode all together, see vanity is your greatest enemy.
PS,Renault will get lapped in Mugello.
Last edited by mem on 02 Sep 2020, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
As I mentioned having an opinion based on inference is perfectly fine. For me personally I think he trotted out the standard company line and I don't think that the amount of downforce they added would explain their low speed trap figures in q3 with party mode hence I tend to believe they probably didn't. Additionally why would Tanabe say they didn't use Q3 mode, he is generally pretty honest to the press. In any case as you say we simply don't know the truth one way or the other but I would be very happy if the gap lessens at Monza and we get some competitive action within 2-3 races.
I agree with you in the most part. What I can't agree with you on, is the fact that you present their 'low' speed traps as the main proof that they were not running their most powerful quali mode.
In Spa, both Mercedes and Red Bull ran with higher downforce due to prediction of rain. If you look at where the speed trap in Spa is, it's just before the Kemmel straight and before DRS activation zone. Hence, it's not a surprise that the speed at the speed trap was less than other cars running less downforce.
But guess what? While Mercedes did not have the highest speed traps, they did have the highest maximum speed. So even though they start the Kemmel straight with less speed, after DRS is activated, they still are achieving the maximum speeds. That surely must count for some impressive power modes no?
Merc doesnt gain anything from speed trap up to intermediate 1.
There seems to be some problem with the sensor situation on Interemdiate 1 and with telemetry speed that is shown on F1 app and the data here. Hamilton never went beyond 327 Kph on Intermediate 1.
Verstappen did 329. His speed then dropped by the time he came to Intermediat 1 sensor as Albon took turn and the tow stopped for Verstappen.
I agree with you in the most part. What I can't agree with you on, is the fact that you present their 'low' speed traps as the main proof that they were not running their most powerful quali mode.
In Spa, both Mercedes and Red Bull ran with higher downforce due to prediction of rain. If you look at where the speed trap in Spa is, it's just before the Kemmel straight and before DRS activation zone. Hence, it's not a surprise that the speed at the speed trap was less than other cars running less downforce.
But guess what? While Mercedes did not have the highest speed traps, they did have the highest maximum speed. So even though they start the Kemmel straight with less speed, after DRS is activated, they still are achieving the maximum speeds. That surely must count for some impressive power modes no?
Merc doesnt gain anything from speed trap up to intermediate 1.
There seems to be some problem with the sensor situation on Interemdiate 1 and with telemetry speed that is shown on F1 app and the data here. Hamilton never went beyond 327 Kph on Intermediate 1.
Verstappen did 329. His speed then dropped by the time he came to Intermediat 1 sensor as Albon took turn and the tow stopped for Verstappen. https://i.imgur.com/ZBtEPLz.jpg
Hamilton did 330 in Q2 which is where 328 comes from I'day, even though sometimes F1 app misses the last 1 kmh on some straights since it has lower refresh rate compared to what you see on world feed.
It's also true verstappen did more speed than shown on intermediate 1 numbers, i somehow forgot about ERS clipping at the end straights having an impact on those readings
Not much of a race with only a couple of battles in the midfield to speak of.
However, there’s some interest as the lead teams ran different downforce packages so let’s see what we have.
Lap 1, Hamilton leads into T1 and then repeats his anti-Vettel technique (purposefully or not) and causes Bottas to lift a little, buying him enough space to make it to the end of the straight before being overtaken. Verstappen and Ricciardo hold station and Albon has a fishtail coming out of T1 and loses out to Ocon.
Somewhat anti-climactic and the race settles into its first phase.
By the end of lap 1, Hamilton has his usual gap to P2 and over 2.5 seconds to Verstappen. Bottas holds Hamilton at under 2 seconds until lap 10. The gap oscillates throughout the lap but he can’t quite get close enough to make it work for him. Meanwhile, Verstappen manages to stay with Bottas for two laps but loses the tow on lap 4 when Bottas ups his pace (dropping into the 1:49s and setting the fastest lap) and drop back 2.3 seconds. That’s pretty much all she wrote for Verstappen in the first phase. Until the Safety Car at the end of lap 10, Verstappen loses an average of 0.66 seconds a lap and is unable to get into the 1:49s. Hamilton is posting 1:49s from lap 5 and Bottas from Lap 7. Behind them Ricciardo is trying to hang on, but can’t even manage the three laps Verstappen does, falling back at nearly a second a lap until the Safety Car rescues him.
At the point the Safety car comes out at the end of lap 10.
Gaps at the end of the first stint (10 laps)
Bottas +2.381
Verstappen +6.661
Ricciardo +14.167
Take these numbers with a pinch of salt. We’ve no idea who was planning on running long and who was planning on an aggressive undercut.
The marshals do an excellent job and clear the debris allowing the Safety Car to come in at the end of lap 14. Top four are all on the same tyre. Phase 2 of the Grand prix kicks into life. This is the best chance to jump the cars in front so, full beans!
It’s a typical Mercedes restart. Hamilton posts a 1:48.325, over a second faster than his previous best. Bottas does his best to match it, posting a 1:48.824.
Verstappen manages a 1:49.597. And Ricciardo is stuck behind Gasly and Perez who have yet to pit.
Bottas stalks Hamilton for a lap, flirting with DRS range, then starts to drop back at half-a-second a lap until Hamilton eases the pace on lap 20 with the gap at +2.5 seconds. For these five laps, Hamilton was averaging 1:48.3. Bottas only managed 1:48.7s, tailing off badly with the 4th lap being a 1:49.142 and the 5th lap being a 1:48.752 to Hamilton’s 1:48.470 and 1:48.325, respectively. That’s the race for first settled.
Behind, Verstappen has been hanging on. He drifted back to +1.9 seconds off Bottas at the end of lap 17 but this is when Bottas has his slow couple of laps and Verstappen, scenting blood, pounces. He closes up to 1.3 seconds and stays there for four laps but has to ease the pace a little on laps 21 and 22, drifting out to 1.5 seconds. Bottas, sighs in relief but makes a small mistake, costing him 4/10ths and bringing Verstappen right back into play. They cross the line to begin lap 25 with Verstappen less than 2/10ths from DRS range.
But, now things have become serious, Bottas drops the hammer. Verstappen has been lapping in the mid 1:48s. So Bottas puts in a 1:48.0 and then dips a toe in to the 1:47s. Verstappen gives it everything he’s go and sets his fastest lap of the race, a 1:48.305. That lap is a 1:47.983 for Bottas (also his fastest lap) and that’s the race for second finished.
While all this is going on, Hamilton is working to stretch his lead. Having already set a 1:47 on lap 26, he sees Bottas and Verstappen racing and decides to join in. The lap after their fastest laps, Hamilton sets his, a 1:47.758. He then sets a 1:47.964 the next lap (this is still a little faster than Bottas' best) and then he slows his pace to around 1-2/10ths a lap faster than Bottas until the end of the race. It’s been 15 laps since the Safety Car came in, he’s 4.5 seconds ahead of Bottas and 7.3 seconds ahead of Verstappen (and they’ve been pushing for a few laps).
Behind the lead three, Ricciardo is probably getting flashbacks to when he actually drove a competitive car. He passed Perez within three laps of the restart and immediately gets on the back of Gasly. The Frenchmen holds him up for a couple of laps before also being passed. It’s lap 21 and Ricciardo is 12.5 seconds behind Verstappen. Clear of traffic, he ups his pace by a second a lap, going from 1:51s behind Perez and mid 1:50s behind Gasly, to mid 1:49s. However, Verstappen is posting 1:48s whilst racing Bottas so the gap continues to climb, especially in laps where he gains a tow down the straight.
Lap 25. Ricciardo decides to go for it. Verstappen is still in the middle of his battle with Bottas so there’s no sign of any weakness but Ricciardo drops from 1:49.5s to 1:49.0s. and, as Verstappen begins to ease off (lap 30), Ricciardo doesn’t and starts closing the gap. For the next 15 laps (until the end of the race) he will be quicker than Verstappen on 14 of them.
Lap 40. The pace of leaders drops significantly. All of the top 3 ease off nearly in sync. Ricciardo stays on it but, by the end of the penultimate lap, he’s still 7.9 seconds behind. A spicy final lap next him the overall fastest lap of the race with a 1:47.483 and gets him to within 3.43 seconds of Verstappen but that’s all she wrote. Was the four-and-a-half seconds he lost behind Gasly and Perez crucial? Almost certainly not, I suspect Verstappen had enough in the tank to hold him behind if he had really been a threat.
Gaps at the end of the second stint (30 laps)
Bottas +8.448
Verstappen +15.455
Ricciardo + 18.877
A humbling race for those hoping for exciting championships, even with Hamilton having to race without the benefit of a tow. Roll on Monza and the consequences of the engine mode shake up.
The only question for me is:- Did the Mercedes drivers use DAS as the race went on to try and help them with front tyre temperature? It’s not as if they were under any pressure.
As always, corrections/feedback welcome.
Last edited by Wynters on 03 Sep 2020, 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
The long straights in sectors 1 & 3 can cool the front tires so you get a bit of understeer when you get to sector 2. I feel Red Bull chipped away at Mercedes this weekend once again. Verstappen was closer here than he was in Spain. Monza is the least downforce sensitive track, although you still need enough downforce to get through the Lesmos, Ascari and Parabolica.
I think this will be the race Red Bull is closest to Mercedes in pure pace. Mugello will be interesting, downforce is very important around there, and tire wear is extremely high, as sector 2 puts a tremendous amount of energy through the tires. Only the hardest tire will be good for the race. May be a good tire to qualify on as the medium will require a lot of management.
Thanks Wynters! Question though. I think Hamilton on talent is, can be, if needed a half or bit more a second quicker than Bottas. So when he actually puts these laps in (and Bottas is already racing Max at the maximum of his ability) what makes you think there is even more at tap? Maybe when using the battery, but lap after lap, even more than 0.5 0.6 quicker than Bottas. What is the thought pattern behind that?
Thanks Wynters! Question though. I think Hamilton on talent is, can be, if needed a half or bit more a second quicker than Bottas. So when he actually puts these laps in (and Bottas is already racing Max at the maximum of his ability) what makes you think there is even more at tap? Maybe when using the battery, but lap after lap, even more than 0.5 0.6 quicker than Bottas. What is the thought pattern behind that?
Good question.
It's clear from the first stint of the race that Hamilton couldn't break entirely clear of Bottas. Whilst the Finn didn't pressure him directly, he remained a constant threat until the Safety Car. However, he was close enough to get the tow and whilst it would hurt him in the corners, Quali tactics across the grid suggest there's a net benefit to it.
Without knowing the target laps it's all up in the air though. Maybe Hamilton was hammering his tyres and aiming for an early stop to try and maintain track position? Or perhaps the reverse was true? Etc, etc.
The second stint is clearer as they were going to the end (although still significantly distorted by the issue with the front tyres). Bottas is tight on Hamilton up to the start of lap 17, then Hamilton pulls away at nearly .5 for three laps, essentially ending the race. Is that sustainable? Does Hamilton slow after that because he's burnt up too much performance or because he's safe and can ease up a little?
He's able to respond to the Bottas' quick laps 26 and 27 and goes faster than Bottas can manage (pulling a net .75 across laps 26 to 29 and increasing his cushion from a comfortable 4 seconds). Is he only doing enough to keep Bottas discouraged? Or is this the best he has? From here, his pace drops off to generally only a tenth or two faster than Bottas. It's possible that this is Hamilton struggling but we get no indication of this from radio or post race.
Bottas also slows (from about lap 30, once he's +3 seconds to Verstappen), and I think both Mercedes focus on getting home safely with as little wear as possible. Given Hamilton hasn't had Verstappen in his mirrors I suspect he's got more left in terms of tyres, fuel, modes, etc. Late in the race, Hamilton does put in an occasional quicker lap (e.g. Lap 35 & 39) thay buy him +0.5 seconds but the race is over by that point and I think Bottas is cruising as well.
If I had to pinpoint a particular moment, it was those fast laps on 26,-29. Not because they were much faster than Bottas (they weren't) but because he could pull a .5 second a lap gap at the restart and still be able to go quicker than Bottas much later in the stint when Bottas pushed. On top of that, out in front, I would expect him to have more saved up in terms of tyre/fuel/modes than Bottas, who Verstappen put sufficient pressure on to force a mistake on lap 24.
There's a lot of supposition here and I could very easily be wrong. I don't think Hamilton had more than a sustained .3 or .4 on Bottas on Sunday (distorted by the tow). I'll edit my post to reflect that (thank you for the thought provoking question).
These are very nice to read Wynters. Offcourse indeed all we say is assumption, but it seems very accurate and realistic, and does provide more insight (to me) what happened when. I do consider myself an “semi experienced” F1 viewer by now, I understand the real battles and the confines they take place in (fuel usage, engine life, tire life, indeed tows and sitting in dirty air etc. But your posts are very clear. And especially the emphasize on when a defining moment takes place is really nice, good to read.
Gaps at the end of the first stint (10 laps)
Bottas +2.381
Verstappen +6.661
Ricciardo +14.167
loong paragraph
i see you still argue for the sake of arguing , no big tow because Max had the same 5 tenths in q2 on yellows
and in first run in q3 and last run 5 tenths
first stint gap in SPA was +6.661 because Max had a fight with Ricciardo and went off track , the second stint is the right to measure which as i said from lap 15 (safety car ending) to lap 25 was 2.5 seconds.
just to compare , in Hungarian GP after the pit stop the gap from lap 7 to lap 27 (track much shorter than SPA) was 5.5 seconds , in silverstone 1 from lap 1 to lap 12 gap was + 6 seconds and after pit stop from lap 15 to lap 30 (again track shorter than SPA) gap was also + 6 seconds , in Spain from lap 1 to lap 20 (track much shorter than SPA) gap was + 7 seconds .
honestly i don't know how you know drivers intentions during race are you divinely inspired ?
there was a drop in power in qualification and during race in SPA for Mercedes perhaps its better for you people to have the courage to admit it , instead of infiltrating the thread keep upvoting your replies downvoting opposite opinions trying to force your own ones , a bit childish you know
