Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[NL_Fer]

First impression is Max's MGUK failed to kick in at 100 km/h.

Looks faster than 100kph. Also the rear light blinked, which suggest the MGU-K shut down at the moment Max was next to Hamilton.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Can't tell what speed it was but his initial launch throughout the grip limited phase and after was very strong indicating that the ICE was doing OK. At 100 km/h the MGUK would normally come in - I can't tell whether it worked initially and then gave up the ghost or if it just failed to kick in at all. I suppose it will become clear when the onboard footage emerges.

What is interesting is that Honda mentioned they were hurt by the red flags at Monza. This might be pointing at issues with heat soak while the car is stationary on the grid. That's when PU fluids see peak temperatures. At Monza he had high temperatures and ERS issues right after the re-start, at Mugello something happened right at the start, presumably ERS related again. It can't be a coincidence.

[henry]

Can't tell what speed it was but his initial launch throughout the grip limited phase and after was very strong indicating that the ICE was doing OK. At 100 km/h the MGUK would normally come in - I can't tell whether it worked initially and then gave up the ghost or if it just failed to kick in at all. I suppose it will become clear when the onboard footage emerges.

What is interesting is that Honda mentioned they were hurt by the red flags at Monza. This might be pointing at issues with heat soak while the car is stationary on the grid. That's when PU fluids see peak temperatures. At Monza he had high temperatures and ERS issues right after the re-start, at Mugello something happened right at the start, presumably ERS related again. It can't be a coincidence.

100kph would come up after about 25m. Verstappen had travelled a lot further than that when the tail light came on. So your conjecture that the K gave up the ghost seems more likely. A safety shutdown because of high K temperature seems a good possibility.

[Sieper]

Can't tell what speed it was but his initial launch throughout the grip limited phase and after was very strong indicating that the ICE was doing OK. At 100 km/h the MGUK would normally come in - I can't tell whether it worked initially and then gave up the ghost or if it just failed to kick in at all. I suppose it will become clear when the onboard footage emerges.

What is interesting is that Honda mentioned they were hurt by the red flags at Monza. This might be pointing at issues with heat soak while the car is stationary on the grid. That's when PU fluids see peak temperatures. At Monza he had high temperatures and ERS issues right after the re-start, at Mugello something happened right at the start, presumably ERS related again. It can't be a coincidence.

I agree. And he had those at the first start in Monza too. Cost him “only” two places as the chicane was close and that “saved” Him. Alex Albon when asked about his plans pre race said he hoped he would not lose too many places at start. Albon has been giving clues away to the competitors in his interviews. Far too honoust.

[63l8qrrfy6]

I remember a year or so we were debating rumours that Honda might be using a waterless coolant.
If they do, which I doubted at the time (and still do), the reduced heat capacity which is roughly half that of water would make the heat soak on the grid much much worse assuming similar fluid mass.

It's also interesting that they did not seem to have issues in practice which may be down to the car not experiencing any proper heat soak since they use the blowers as soon as they come into the pits. Even when they do practice starts on the grid (did they actually do any at Mugello? ) they spend very little time stationary compared to a normal race start. Not to mention that the further up the grid a car is, the longer the heat soak.

[Sieper]

It started after the new rule change. And Honda asked for that to be postponed from Spa to Monza.

There is an issue. Hopefully the next two weeks are enough to get to grasps with it.

[rogazilla]

It started after the new rule change. And Honda asked for that to be postponed from Spa to Monza.

There is an issue. Hopefully the next two weeks are enough to get to grasps with it.

I think the issue is launch... we didn’t really see a problem in launching at start until now.

[Marti_EF3]

But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?

[rogazilla]

My guess is there is a sensor or 2 that’s problematic but when you test it it passes? It happens sometime, I had a tough time starting my car few years ago. The trickle charger tested it pass and fully charged. Then I took it to auto part store they tested and passed but I decided to buy a new one while I am there and recycle the 2 year old battery that charge and passes the test. Well new battery starts and crank every time for the next 4 years then I sold the car.

[Sieper]

I had a scooter as a kid, never started electrically. Not even when it was brand new. Always had to kick it. Fine. Then I bought a yuasa battery and I could use the luxury of button start.

[kalinka]

But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?

He's further up on the grid usually, so stays stationary more than other cars with the same PU. This was marginal now in Mugello, but it was still a few seconds more than Albon. Additionally, he's way more agressive with tyre heating on the warmup lap than others around him. That may have an impact on engine temp too.

[63l8qrrfy6]

But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?

There's many possible explanations. It could be a build quality issue, a component quality problem, some form of unfavourable tolerance stack, a design issue that does not always manifest itself, etc.

The sample size they use to validate a PU design in F1 is tiny, particularly for such a complex system. Max might just have ended up on the wrong side of statistics.

[etusch]

But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?

He's further up on the grid usually, so stays stationary more than other cars with the same PU. This was marginal now in Mugello, but it was still a few seconds more than Albon. Additionally, he's way more agressive with tyre heating on the warmup lap than others around him. That may have an impact on engine temp too.

he said that issue firstly showed up at warm up lap. So you may be right.
At the end as some other forumer said ( I forget who was) 1 week is too short and they have to use complete new pu as a caution.
And of course it is easy to talk after everything happened but it won't change past.

[aran.vtec]

But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?

This is a really good point, Why only on Max's car (is his car built differently or different spec parts?) although Albons car was also a dog on the starts.

Then on the other side of the team SAT cars starts seem to be very impressive so has to be something on the RB side

[aran.vtec]

But why is Max car the only one with the issues causing DNF, lost electrical power, etc? Maybe related to software about his particular driving style? Like deployment strategy, throttle, etc?

He's further up on the grid usually, so stays stationary more than other cars with the same PU. This was marginal now in Mugello, but it was still a few seconds more than Albon. Additionally, he's way more agressive with tyre heating on the warmup lap than others around him. That may have an impact on engine temp too.

Not sure about that the issue first showed up in the 2nd start in monza where he was further back on the grid and gasly far up in P3 who actually had a better start than the Merc