How about the value of the continually excellent Renault customer power unit? That would provide Red Bull Racing with a good power unit at a fair commercial rate.
they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.Big Tea wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 11:26I think Honda value wins far more than podiums, quite understandably, bit equally value a reliability reputation.nzjrs wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 11:17I think the only plausible risk is that Honda themselves do not elect to continue as they currently are (extend their contract), which AFAIK they have still not commited to. We have heard suspiciously little about the 2020 covid derived unplanned engine freeze and how this can be 'remedied' in 2021, which if I was them, would have hampered me greatly. I think there must be some serious negotiations going on behind closed doors between the PU manufacturers and FIA/FOM concerning engine parity, tokens, closing the field, etc.
The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course. I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.
This puts them in a position of not wanting to turn the engine up to 10 for reliability and losing a little from the race position.
This is straight forward in some races, we are not going to catch Merc, so go fro reliable over strong.
Then we get some outlayers as we have had and it comes to the frying pan or the fire.
Had we turned the engine up last time, we would have been in with a chance, had we not turned it up this time we would have been there at the end and had a chance. Damned if you do-Damned if you don't
2 DNFs say you are wrongetusch wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:13they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.Big Tea wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 11:26I think Honda value wins far more than podiums, quite understandably, bit equally value a reliability reputation.nzjrs wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 11:17I think the only plausible risk is that Honda themselves do not elect to continue as they currently are (extend their contract), which AFAIK they have still not commited to. We have heard suspiciously little about the 2020 covid derived unplanned engine freeze and how this can be 'remedied' in 2021, which if I was them, would have hampered me greatly. I think there must be some serious negotiations going on behind closed doors between the PU manufacturers and FIA/FOM concerning engine parity, tokens, closing the field, etc.
The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course. I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.
This puts them in a position of not wanting to turn the engine up to 10 for reliability and losing a little from the race position.
This is straight forward in some races, we are not going to catch Merc, so go fro reliable over strong.
Then we get some outlayers as we have had and it comes to the frying pan or the fire.
Had we turned the engine up last time, we would have been in with a chance, had we not turned it up this time we would have been there at the end and had a chance. Damned if you do-Damned if you don't
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
Did both Red Bull and Renault do the same underestimation for the 2014 season, or only Renault?
A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
I am talking Pu wise. But it can said for chassis too. Mercedes started full ready to season Redbull started like we used to see. They are going well but season is too tightJordanMugen wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15Did both Red Bull and Renault do the same underestimation for the 2014 season, or only Renault?
How did the RB10 chassis compared to Mercedes W05 chassis -- superior, on par, or inferior?
I think it is all just speculation at this point.JordanMugen wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
Indeed.Mudflap wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:21I think it is all just speculation at this point.JordanMugen wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.Mudflap wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15.etusch wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:13they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
I speculated on the engine forum this might be due to heatsoak on the grid. This is not replicated at any point during free practice.nzjrs wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:24Indeed.Mudflap wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:21I think it is all just speculation at this point.JordanMugen wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15
A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
What's also amazing is that (I think i saw it on reddit) their free practice reliability is great. I can't fathom how they sysyematically get two consecutive raceday DNFs!
Where did you get that from ?Wouter wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:25The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.Mudflap wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15.etusch wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:13they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
"It seems that it was the same problem as last week in Monza," the Red Bull driver told Ziggo Sport.
"The start was good, but when I went full throttle, I had that problem again. I could already feel it on the way to the grid."
When told that his actual retirement was caused by the crash, Verstappen responded: "That's what you get when you end up in situations like that. I would have dropped out anyway."
He stopped short of pointing the finger directly at Honda, but admitted: "It is not normal for it to happen two races in a row. At the moment I'm sick of it. It doesn't matter that much to me anymore."
Indeed, with Lewis Hamilton winning again, Verstappen's points deficit to the lead Mercedes is now 80 points.
when you think that way ( it is not wrong) they were dnf and at least they lost podium every time. But in the other hand they were not big issues of course because they can use that pu still. Maybe back to back dnf is because of this usage.Mudflap wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:21I think it is all just speculation at this point.JordanMugen wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
I don't think that's an easy fix. One will first have to know what is causing the problem in the ECU.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/verstapp ... all-honda/Wouter wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:25The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.Mudflap wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:15.etusch wrote: ↑16 Sep 2020, 12:13they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
Honda says Max Verstappen’s engine problem at the start of the Tuscan Grand Prix was “not small” and the big impact that then wiped him out completed a “very bad situation”.
“We’re now investigating the cause of the issue,” Tanabe said.
“At the moment I cannot tell you if we could continue, or we had to retire.
“But the issue is not small. The impact was big. So, it was a very bad situation.”
Honda will conduct a physical investigation of the engine itself while its R&D department in Sakura, Japan, has already started to analyse the race data.
Tanabe said “we haven’t decided the plan” for what happens next. Honda will first need to assess the cause and what damage has been done.
The frustration is so deep that Red Bull's engine partner Honda is already getting its fat. Verstappen had the same engine problems twice in a row, he cursed publicly. "That is unacceptable." One thing is clear: the honeymoon with Honda is over, the tone is getting rougher. Only Red Bull motorsport chief adviser Helmut Marko remains (still) calm. "Honda has made progress, but Mercedes is still superior in the area of batteries. We have to start now." Marko explains the two engine problems at ABMS as follows: "Honda has exchanged engineers. Perhaps that is why there were the unexpected difficulties."
