Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[63l8qrrfy6]

As I said, the only reason why the MGUK can't start on its own is the lack of a zero speed sensor. This has absolutely nothing to do with harvest and deployment capabilities.

[Big Tea]

Any idea on why the Mercedes PU is not able to start itself (outside the pitbox, without external starter, contrary to the other PUs) and if/how this is related to a design decision delivering benefit in harvesting or deployment compared to the Honda?

I just re watched Lewis pitstop,and there was no starter man in position. Surly if it could not restatr, he would have been on station for a longer stop?

[Winterapfel]

Any idea on why the Mercedes PU is not able to start itself (outside the pitbox, without external starter, contrary to the other PUs) and if/how this is related to a design decision delivering benefit in harvesting or deployment compared to the Honda?

I just re watched Lewis pitstop,and there was no starter man in position. Surly if it could not restatr, he would have been on station for a longer stop?

I was referring to this:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/26/how ... race/?s=09

[Winterapfel]

As I said, the only reason why the MGUK can't start on its own is the lack of a zero speed sensor. This has absolutely nothing to do with harvest and deployment capabilities.

OK, thanks. The article below just had me wondering. Why would Merc not have implemented this? They wouldn't just miss such a feature.. So I was expecting some kind of benefit why the choose to omit this..

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/26/how ... race/?s=09

[Big Tea]

Any idea on why the Mercedes PU is not able to start itself (outside the pitbox, without external starter, contrary to the other PUs) and if/how this is related to a design decision delivering benefit in harvesting or deployment compared to the Honda?

I just re watched Lewis pitstop,and there was no starter man in position. Surly if it could not restatr, he would have been on station for a longer stop?

I was referring to this:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/26/how ... race/?s=09

I have seen it in a few places,and attributed to different people, but not from a direct quote. (which is not to say it is not true). It was mentioned first by Crofty, and rebutted by Chandok who said Racing point can, and they have to have the same engine and software. (his words not mine, so may be wrong)

Surly though if true, they would have the starter man at least standing by?
Not being insistent here, 'just saying like' for the sake of discussion and I am usually wrong in these things, but thick skinned

So if anyone has it direct from Toto or Merc... We will probably get it clarified on their post race vid.

[gruntguru]

A comment on retarding spark to increase MGUH energy. The only time you might do that would be if you are able to harvest the full 2 MJ/lap permitted with the MGUK.

It is far more efficient (powerful) to collect the energy with the piston than with the exhaust turbine.

Similarly, if you have plenty of charge in the ES and you want maximum power to the wheels, you will get more power by maximising piston output since the MGUK is limited to 120 kW. Retarding the timing and increasing the MGUH recovery will not allow more MGUK power - it will reduce the drain on the ES but reduce the crankshaft power by more than that drain reduction. If you wanted to reduce the drain, you would reduce MGUK output and save 100% of the power reduction.

[63l8qrrfy6]

As I said, the only reason why the MGUK can't start on its own is the lack of a zero speed sensor. This has absolutely nothing to do with harvest and deployment capabilities.

OK, thanks. The article below just had me wondering. Why would Merc not have implemented this? They wouldn't just miss such a feature.. So I was expecting some kind of benefit why the choose to omit this..

https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/26/how ... race/?s=09

It is a completely useless feature 99% percent of the time.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yep repeated here.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... nda-power/

Remember what I said about the MGUK!!

Russia has less braking zones and it affected RedBull.

We also saw in Austria qualifying where Mercedes could release the brake earlier than Max. I am no driver to undstrand what that means but it was something very noticeable.

Said before. I am going with Wazari's insight that their Mercedes MGUK is working under very harsh conditions. Conditions that other manufacturers do not want to push.

Granted the ICE is still where the big money is.. But just saying that MGUK is another area Honda is working on feverishly this year.

Funny how Mercedes avoid starting their engines unnecessarily with the MGUK. Does anyone else see what this means?

Make a guess.

if mercedes engine stops on track it can not be started again.

Actually the engine should start using the MGUK in an emergency if prgrammed as such . It's just a motor after all it will turn the engine to some degree!

To me it seems Mercedes limit the number of times it is used to start the engine or even avoid using it to start the engine alltogether. This does not mean it cannot start the engine.

OK there is another possible to why it is not used... It could be how the MGUK is geared to the flywheel. And the speed range of starting versus race rpms. Another reason is when an engine starts there is a kick. There is also an sharp voltage increase in the MGUK immediately following. The Power electronics have to dump this energy into some sort of capacitor bank or the battery to avoid over-voltage. So we got some mechanical and electrical compromises... Or should I say extremes that Mercedes has taken inside of their gearing or their control electronics... that they rather not aggravate by using the MGUK to start the engine.. Just a theory of course.

This gearing range or simplified electronics in either case maybe could allow their MGUK to just that much more efficient? I have no evidence... Just guessing here.. Why a simple function would be restricted/eliminated.

[PlatinumZealot]

As I said, the only reason why the MGUK can't start on its own is the lack of a zero speed sensor. This has absolutely nothing to do with harvest and deployment capabilities.

Ok interesting one.
I would think ther other speed/position sensors would substitute?

[Big Tea]

Yep repeated here.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... nda-power/

Remember what I said about the MGUK!!

Russia has less braking zones and it affected RedBull.

We also saw in Austria qualifying where Mercedes could release the brake earlier than Max. I am no driver to undstrand what that means but it was something very noticeable.

Said before. I am going with Wazari's insight that their Mercedes MGUK is working under very harsh conditions. Conditions that other manufacturers do not want to push.

Granted the ICE is still where the big money is.. But just saying that MGUK is another area Honda is working on feverishly this year.

Funny how Mercedes avoid starting their engines unnecessarily with the MGUK. Does anyone else see what this means?

Make a guess.

if mercedes engine stops on track it can not be started again.

Actually the engine should start using the MGUK in an emergency if prgrammed as such . It's just a motor after all it will turn the engine to some degree!

To me it seems Mercedes limit the number of times it is used to start the engine or even avoid using it to start the engine alltogether. This does not mean it cannot start the engine.

OK there is another possible to why it is not used... It could be how the MGUK is geared to the flywheel. And the speed range of starting versus race rpms. Another reason is when an engine starts there is a kick. There is also an sharp voltage increase in the MGUK immediately following. The Power electronics have to dump this energy into some sort of capacitor bank or the battery to avoid over-voltage. So we got some mechanical and electrical compromises... Or should I say extremes that Mercedes has taken inside of their gearing or their control electronics... that they rather not aggravate by using the MGUK to start the engine.. Just a theory of course.

This gearing range or simplified electronics in either case maybe could allow their MGUK to just that much more efficient? I have no evidence... Just guessing here.. Why a simple function would be restricted/eliminated.

There are a number of 2 stroke motorcycles 'bubble cars' and boats from 50 years ago that used the generator as a starter
http://www.messerschmitt.co.uk/comparis ... h-fitting/

https://anthonywillmott.files.wordpress ... gazine.pdf

[63l8qrrfy6]

As I said, the only reason why the MGUK can't start on its own is the lack of a zero speed sensor. This has absolutely nothing to do with harvest and deployment capabilities.

Ok interesting one.
I would think ther other speed/position sensors would substitute?

Only when the motor starts turning conventional sensors can work out speed and position.

A PMSM requires the rotor position to be known in order to self start. I am aware there are novel sensorless self starting control strategies but I know very little about them.

[GhostF1]

I remember Honda stating quite a few times that it's extremely tricky to find the right balance between achieving ICE efficiency without sacrificing energy recovery too much.

Is it possible that the pursuit towards ICE efficiency has impacted their energy recovery? After all, better efficiency translates to less heat losses, less starting fuel and/or more time on the throttle. Who knows, maybe they might have found that the gains outweigh the energy recovery losses? After all, it is also a balance between different circuits on the calendar.

Then again, I doubt Mercedes's ICE is less efficient than Honda's, so one does wonder about how Mercedes could achieve both, or say, an even better balance.

I know this may sound like a completely stupid question - after all I'm no expert - but does anyone know if it's possible to alter the combustion from race to race in order to produce more recoverable energy through the MGU-H at circuits that have less corners? Would that even make sense?

Yeah for sure it's possible. We know this was something that affected Honda in 2016. They brought an ICE upgrade that brought the efficiency up to a point where it caused the ERS to suffer. In Canada they brought a revised Turbo/MGU-H to try and claw back some of the loss.

As for ICE efficiency, Honda have conceded Mercedes' advantage over them is in their ICE. Honda are confident in their turbo/MGU-H and believed they were above Mercedes in this area at the end of last year, but now believe Merc have found good gains there for 2020.

As for altering combustion from race to race. I'm almost certain this happens, or some sort of control alteration. It's extremely noticeable with the Honda's. Asaki was asked about their unique sound and all he mentioned was that they have various control functions related to how the ICE is run and so, sounds will change. Certain tracks Honda has that extremely aggressive backfire/crackle off throttle and on downshifts since they introduced the Spec 4 and new fuel last year. It was noticeable at Singapore and Interlagos in 2019, and this year, Barcelona and Mugello. Track characteristics must have something to do with it.

As for why Mercedes have opted against K restarts. It's definitely curious. Wolff doesn't actually say they omitted the feature for improved reliability and performance from the K like Dieter Rencken alludes to in his article, Wolff only says they don't have that feature. So we should maybe take that with a grain of salt, but it is certainly curious as to why they can't start their engines with it, especially when you take into account Mercedes looked to have an issue with their MGU-K's this year early on, with various drivers burning them out and Hamilton and Stroll are all on their last for the season with the previous ones spent and not available in the pool.

[PlatinumZealot]

As I said, the only reason why the MGUK can't start on its own is the lack of a zero speed sensor. This has absolutely nothing to do with harvest and deployment capabilities.

Ok interesting one.
I would think ther other speed/position sensors would substitute?

Only when the motor starts turning conventional sensors can work out speed and position.

A PMSM requires the rotor position to be known in order to self start. I am aware there are novel sensorless self starting control strategies but I know very little about them.

That is interesting again...
OK guys last post on this side track... but I wonder... If MGUK motor is a DC permanent magnet that 99% was surmised in the engine thread, then the MGUK needs an angular position sensor to work. DC permanent magnet motors tend to be more efficient than induction motors. Induction motors however do not require position sensor (they only use slip between the stator field and rotor field) to turn. It is generally accepted on this forum that this type of motor is not used. Or is it?
Now this has me thinking.

1. Could Mercedes be using an Induction motor? (crazy but possible)
2. There are some situations where the normally less efficient induction motor can outperform the brushless DC permanent magnet motor. the Permanent magnet is heavy and field is not variable..if there is anything to gained..Induction motor could be lighter, or more efficient at certain loads, smaller electronics maybe... who knows..

OK don't answer here I think we have to look deeper at this in the Mercedes topic now.

[saviour stivala]

I remember Honda stating quite a few times that it's extremely tricky to find the right balance between achieving ICE efficiency without sacrificing energy recovery too much.

Is it possible that the pursuit towards ICE efficiency has impacted their energy recovery? After all, better efficiency translates to less heat losses, less starting fuel and/or more time on the throttle. Who knows, maybe they might have found that the gains outweigh the energy recovery losses? After all, it is also a balance between different circuits on the calendar.

Then again, I doubt Mercedes's ICE is less efficient than Honda's, so one does wonder about how Mercedes could achieve both, or say, an even better balance.

I know this may sound like a completely stupid question - after all I'm no expert - but does anyone know if it's possible to alter the combustion from race to race in order to produce more recoverable energy through the MGU-H at circuits that have less corners? Would that even make sense?

''Does anybody know if it's possible to alter the combustion from race to race in order to produce more recoverable energy through the MGU-H?'' Yes. Different power unit modes are allowed to be selected for use for different tracks.

[saviour stivala]

Any idea on why the Mercedes PU is not able to start itself (outside the pitbox, without external starter, contrary to the other PUs) and if/how this is related to a design decision delivering benefit in harvesting or deployment compared to the Honda?

I just re watched Lewis pitstop,and there was no starter man in position. Surly if it could not restatr, he would have been on station for a longer stop?

No one of the power units on the grid is 'able to restart start itself'. The driver will have to 'restart' if the engine stalls. But. It does not mean that because Mercedes have chosen not to have driver restart facility and or not to let the driver restart means that their MGU-K is not able to restart (crank) the engine.