Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[etusch]

https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-op ... post-2021/

"Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner.

Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams."

If honda is open to share this pu I think it is great opportunity for engineering firms and Redbull ad well

[Wouter]

https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-op ... post-2021/

"Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner.

Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams."

If honda is open to share this pu I think it is great opportunity for engineering firms and Redbull ad well

I agree to that @Etusch. Mario Illien would be great.

[TNTHead]

https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-op ... post-2021/

"Honda’s Formula 1 project leader is willing to discuss Red Bull keeping its engines after its 2021 F1 exit so the team can develop them itself or with a new partner.

Honda will leave F1 at the end of 2021 to redirect its research and development resources towards major automotive targets it has set, but wants to support the succession plan Red Bull must come up with for an alternative engine supply for its two teams."

If honda is open to share this pu I think it is great opportunity for engineering firms and Redbull ad well

I agree to that @Etusch. Mario Illien would be great.

I see this as a highly likely scenario. The Honda PU is a valued asset. If RB (or any other party) can create a perfomance division with the right skilled engineers they could further develop the PU. Question is: with the law of diminishing returns, how much can be extracted? Merc PU this years suggests that there is quite some more to be found (assuming that Merc PU gain is 100% within regulations).

[tangodjango]

Another interesting article:

THE FULL STORY OF HOW McLAREN STEERED HONDA TOWARDS FAILURE - https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-mcla ... l-failure/

[63l8qrrfy6]

There's not much that can be done on the ICE side save for bumping CR with more sophisticated injectors and timing control/sensors.

And making it run leaner and reducing friction and improving compressor and turbine efficiency and reducing heat rejection etc.. and voila it's a brand new engine. There's a thousand little changes that add up to those 10 hp over a winter.

No car sub-system is ever fully developed and fully optimized, that's what F1 is all about.

Under the current regulations how much more can they squeeze out of the current engines if they were to freeze fuel specification? The commercial implications of having a standard fuel supplier and its effect on the competitive order could be a political fire cracker in a porcelain cabinet.

How much more they can squeeze out is anyone's guess. The point is you have to spend the millions and see what you get in return, if you don't you will fall further behind because someone else is bound to find a few more horsepower.

For as long as development is allowed the ICE can be made better, even if is not an outright increase in output. The "it will do" attitude is not even good enough for the midfield.

[_cerber1]

Another interesting article:

THE FULL STORY OF HOW McLAREN STEERED HONDA TOWARDS FAILURE - https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-mcla ... l-failure/

In principle, no one doubted that all the dogs would be lowered to McLaren. Now no one will figure out how everything really was.

[Big Tea]

It would not only be prolonging this engine, it would be putting in place the fundamentals for a complete now competitive engine works.

Starting off a new engine plant they would probably be 2 or 3 years getting off the ground, then 2 or 3 more years geting it to an acceptable point (look at Honda, with all their spending and resources)

This way, they race straight away, getting real world experience with a working engine, and allowing a future engine team to pre plan.

Just stretching the engine out for 2 years in never going t be worth the cost, it has to become a working unit as with Merc and Renault.

There is no reason they have to be tied to building and designing F1 engines either.
There are lots of series out there.

[tangodjango]

If honda is open to share this pu I think it is great opportunity for engineering firms and Redbull ad well

I agree to that @Etusch. Mario Illien would be great.

I see this as a highly likely scenario. The Honda PU is a valued asset. If RB (or any other party) can create a perfomance division with the right skilled engineers they could further develop the PU. Question is: with the law of diminishing returns, how much can be extracted? Merc PU this years suggests that there is quite some more to be found (assuming that Merc PU gain is 100% within regulations).

I think this year Mercedes' harvesting is incredibly refined now. They have so much excess electric power, they can afford to turn on a version of Quali Mode for short blips during the race, multiple times a lap.
To maximize efficiency, they program these boosts for the corner exits, when the driver is getting back on the throttle.
Top speeds end up roughly the same as last year -- but they attain that top speed much sooner, covering the distance between corners in a shorter amount of time. Same basic idea we've known from years of K deployment, just with "quali mode" instead.
The other half is that Mercedes is pushing oil burning as hard as ever, even after the FIA clamped down to a max of 0.3 liters consumed per race. The new Petronas lubricants are rumored to do their job using bare-minimum quantities, letting Mercedes burn the rest as fuel additives. Seems they combine this with the quali mode blips to compensate for the fuel flow limit, using the additives to run lean without detonation.
While they aren't tricking sensors or accumulating fuel in hidden lines and reservoirs the point is whether something is forbidden by volume or composition. Both are against the spirit of the rules just that the latter cannot be effectively policed, the physics is similar in both cases.

[Revs84]

Not sure if you guys read this article, but there was a quote by Horner which might (or might not) hint towards Honda even accelerating their development.

"He is competitive. He feels very comfortable in the team and believes strongly in the Honda program. I think he also sees that Honda has brought forward the engine from 2022 to 2021. That is encouraging, of course.

"So we will take another step forward next year. He's excited about this, and he still has a long way to go until 2022."

I wonder if Honda are indeed planning to go all out next year and somehow bring forward all planned developments they had in the pipelines to go out with a bang.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vers ... =widget-22

[ispano6]

Here is what I gather, based on various news. Honda won't sell the IP because they will be using that very technology for their own means. The goal to be carbon neutral by 2050 does not mean they will stop using hybrid technology after 2021. They will be using them in road car products in various shape and form. Any engine partner that will partner RedBull to develop the PU will not get any IP of the ICE. They will develop other aspects such as software, ancillary components, battery, turbo, and possibly MGUs. Honda will provide the block. The partner likely won't be a Honda rival or adversary, Honda likely won't give away the block for free, and the partner will likely be an entity that will sign into a confidentiality agreement. Redbull may be hiring some of Honda staff to bring the knowhow in house. Personally, I believe HPD and Liberty may play a role.

[hurril]

I agree to that @Etusch. Mario Illien would be great.

I see this as a highly likely scenario. The Honda PU is a valued asset. If RB (or any other party) can create a perfomance division with the right skilled engineers they could further develop the PU. Question is: with the law of diminishing returns, how much can be extracted? Merc PU this years suggests that there is quite some more to be found (assuming that Merc PU gain is 100% within regulations).

I think this year Mercedes' harvesting is incredibly refined now. They have so much excess electric power, they can afford to turn on a version of Quali Mode for short blips during the race, multiple times a lap.
To maximize efficiency, they program these boosts for the corner exits, when the driver is getting back on the throttle.
Top speeds end up roughly the same as last year -- but they attain that top speed much sooner, covering the distance between corners in a shorter amount of time. Same basic idea we've known from years of K deployment, just with "quali mode" instead.
The other half is that Mercedes is pushing oil burning as hard as ever, even after the FIA clamped down to a max of 0.3 liters consumed per race. The new Petronas lubricants are rumored to do their job using bare-minimum quantities, letting Mercedes burn the rest as fuel additives. Seems they combine this with the quali mode blips to compensate for the fuel flow limit, using the additives to run lean without detonation.
While they aren't tricking sensors or accumulating fuel in hidden lines and reservoirs the point is whether something is forbidden by volume or composition. Both are against the spirit of the rules just that the latter cannot be effectively policed, the physics is similar in both cases.

What do you have that will support any of this?

[63l8qrrfy6]

For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?

[Marti_EF3]

Here is what I gather, based on various news. Honda won't sell the IP because they will be using that very technology for their own means. The goal to be carbon neutral by 2050 does not mean they will stop using hybrid technology after 2021. They will be using them in road car products in various shape and form. Any engine partner that will partner RedBull to develop the PU will not get any IP of the ICE. They will develop other aspects such as software, ancillary components, battery, turbo, and possibly MGUs. Honda will provide the block. The partner likely won't be a Honda rival or adversary, Honda likely won't give away the block for free, and the partner will likely be an entity that will sign into a confidentiality agreement. Redbull may be hiring some of Honda staff to bring the knowhow in house. Personally, I believe HPD and Liberty may play a role.

Bring Mugen to the game, and then you'll be fine. Let RBR invest the money they won't be able to throw with the budget cap, and the rest with Honda still developing the Pu with RB help. That will save a lot of costs to Honda, and RB can keep spending more having a benefice with the PU and probably keep a lot of staff in Honda MK

[etusch]

For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?

these kind of comments are not for clearing something but for hiding something.
Firstly mercedes not need pushing for whole race. You are calculating turns , pit entries as km. but they don't push whole race or at turns ot at pit stop. When we think that teams are chasing every small gains, 2 hp is not something they give up. But if they use it to run from drs range do your calculation, if they are in qualification do your calculation.
there are different liquids in the car and it is obvious that mercedes are open to use additional fuel. So why they don't replace banned oil with another liquid?

[63l8qrrfy6]

For those who still believe oil burning is a thing:

Assume the car burns 0.9l of oil (300km race, 0.3l/km) per race and assume a team somehow manages to formulate an oil blend with the same heating values as fuel (say 45MJ/kg) which the FIA somehow fails to notice. Say 50 laps per race, 100s per lap gives roughly 6.5kW available in this fuel/oil per lap at 800kg/m^3 oil density.

Now say this can be converted with some 25% efficiency given than it can only find its way into the combustion chamber by going past the rings and hence will burn very poorly. That's about 2 horsepower.

Do you still think this is something that can be exploited ?

these kind of comments are not for clearing something but for hiding something.
Firstly mercedes not need pushing for whole race. You are calculating turns , pit entries as km. but they don't push whole race or at turns ot at pit stop. When we think that teams are chasing every small gains, 2 hp is not something they give up. But if they use it to run from drs range do your calculation, if they are in qualification do your calculation.
there are different liquids in the car and it is obvious that mercedes are open to use additional fuel. So why they don't replace banned oil with another liquid?

Yes, I am secret agent paid by Mercedes to infiltrate forums and spread misinformation in the guise of reasoning.

They clearly have an oil deploy button hidden somewhere that makes the piston rings open up and let the secret fluid flood the cylinder. Probably FIA are aware but who knows what sort of kompromat the germans have on them.