[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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tangodjango
tangodjango
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:22
I'd be interested to see a comparison between Verstappen and Hamilton at the same point in their careers. I think comparing a 35-year old Hamilton is too much apples compared to oranges.* That would put him up against...2013 (?) Hamilton. I think that would be a very exciting contest.

*To put it another way, I think a 35-year old Verstappen would comfortably beat today's Verstappen as his wealth of experience would be so much greater.
It depends really. I mean Max is an outlier in that at 23 he is more comparable to 2012 Hamilton or 2013 Vettel. It's true experience counts for a lot but every driver develops differently. If you ask me Max is very close to the complete package now apart from being in a WDC title fight. Hamilton on the other hand I feel completely developed only around 2017-2018 a decade after his debut, in that he completely maximised all his attributes though as his first season bears out even without so much experience he was extremely formidable and capable of banging out incredible drives, now he can do that while controlling bad races and weekends to a higher level. Vettel I feel peaked around 2013-2015. Alonso on the other hand was at very high level as early as 2003-4 and came good in his first real title fight and consistently stayed at that very high level all the way through 2018 in that he is similar to Max. I see no reason for him to dip like Vettel given he has the same adaptable traits like Alonso.
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

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Marti_EF3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:48
Hamilton has beaten three WDCs, in the same equipment, at the peak of their respective powers, including during his rookie season.

Yeah, he's just lucky. You've nailed it.
Finishing equal on points is not beating anyone. And I won't continue to what happened that season with the tow and other ridiculous events...

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:48
Hamilton has beaten three WDCs, in the same equipment, at the peak of their respective powers, including during his rookie season.

Yeah, he's just lucky. You've nailed it.
When he didn't lock fronts at turn1 it is talent but when engine faliure occurs at team mates car it is luck. Maybe Rosbergs retirment and comming of Bottas also luck.

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Marti_EF3 wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:54
Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:48
Hamilton has beaten three WDCs, in the same equipment, at the peak of their respective powers, including during his rookie season.

Yeah, he's just lucky. You've nailed it.
Finishing equal on points is not beating anyone. And I won't continue to what happened that season with the tow and other ridiculous events...
The FIA show Hamilton ahead at the end of the season. Take it up with them.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 13:03
Marti_EF3 wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:54
Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 12:48
Hamilton has beaten three WDCs, in the same equipment, at the peak of their respective powers, including during his rookie season.

Yeah, he's just lucky. You've nailed it.
Finishing equal on points is not beating anyone. And I won't continue to what happened that season with the tow and other ridiculous events...
The FIA show Hamilton ahead at the end of the season. Take it up with them.
Yeah, the sames who lifted the car and returned only him to the race. The other were so useless to give them the same chance to continue the race

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Juzh
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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verstappen's new lap record (open in yt)


his q3 lap from saturday (open in yt)

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Jambier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I'm wondering what will be the solution for 2022
Finally, it will a Renault solution. All those drama to get back to Renault...

On one hand there will be Alpine, and on the other Red Bull ???
Will it be rebranded Tag Heuer again ? Will Di Meo demand to be branded "Renault e-tech" ?

What do you think? The issue for Red Bull is that they will be pure customer and of course, they will need to rethink what they are doing with the 2022 car - but this is the case for every engine they will have -

For Renault, it is bad news because it is the risk of having a customer in front of them in 2022

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Juzh wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 11:01
godlameroso wrote:
11 Oct 2020, 23:06

Take aways from the race, the RB16 chassis has improved, but DAS was a big help on the restart, will be interesting to see Mercedes have to do without it next year. To a certain extent, I feel that some of the pace drop off was the power unit running out of ERS. The Mercedes power unit has incredible ERS stamina and can work their chassis can still work the tires better. Those two details make the difference vs the RB16 which is now on the verge of being the premier chassis on the grid.
Looking at some onboards (even the fastest lap one posted earlier) it's clear RB16 is still an unstable car, requiring constant corrections mid-corner in order to be fast. Something Verstappen can do and Albon can't if his life depended on it. It's not snapping away as it was at the start of the season, but it's still not got those confidence inspiring traits we've been used to seeing in previous years. Mercedes on the other hand is all smooth sailing, completely on rails. It's also got a power advantage in key moments. Verstappen lost around 3 tenths vs Hamilton on their final Q3 run on the straights.

https://i.imgur.com/aktEWVn.jpg
The car is fast and will get better once dialed in. You may be on to something, it is a fast chassis but hard to get the performance consistently. Perhaps the Mercedes being more on rails has similar potential but is easier to extract. This was obvious in the race where Verstappen could hang at the start of the second stint, towards the end he started dropping back. Possibly lapped traffic, but perhaps also a shift in balance as the tires wore out.
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epo
epo
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Joined: 25 Nov 2012, 19:57

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Jambier wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 14:32
I'm wondering what will be the solution for 2022
Finally, it will a Renault solution. All those drama to get back to Renault...

On one hand there will be Alpine, and on the other Red Bull ???
Will it be rebranded Tag Heuer again ? Will Di Meo demand to be branded "Renault e-tech" ?

What do you think? The issue for Red Bull is that they will be pure customer and of course, they will need to rethink what they are doing with the 2022 car - but this is the case for every engine they will have -

For Renault, it is bad news because it is the risk of having a customer in front of them in 2022
It wil definitely not be a Renault or Alpine. Red Bull are winners so want a winning engine, they don't want a customer engine.

Wynters
Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 15:17
You may be on to something, it is a fast chassis but hard to get the performance consistently. Perhaps the Mercedes being more on rails has similar potential but is easier to extract. This was obvious in the race where Verstappen could hang at the start of the second stint, towards the end he started dropping back. Possibly lapped traffic, but perhaps also a shift in balance as the tires wore out.
I think I must be missing something?

The first 9 laps of the 27 lap second stint saw Verstappen dropping back at an average of 0.31 seconds per lap. The final 9 laps of the second stint saw Verstappen dropping back at an average of 0.36 seconds per lap. In the middle 9 laps of the second stint, Verstappen dropped back an average of 0.39 per lap. The last two laps of the middle portion (laps 34 and 35) did see an uncharacteristic drop in pace*. Excluding those, we see that Verstappen was best able to stay with Hamilton during this middle phase (gap only growing from 4.379 to 5.434). The difference between the opening of the stint and the closing seems to be insignificant (5/100ths a lap)? Especially compared to the middle stint?

I'd have to rewatch the footage but this drop in pace is not likely to be due to traffic. Hamilton had cleared Giovinazzi on lap 32 and then cleared Vettel on lap 36. I don't think either of these would have hindered Verstappen to that extent on laps 34 and 35.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Gap increased to 8 seconds before the saftey car. I think Lewis was toying with Max by that point.
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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 17:21
godlameroso wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 15:17
You may be on to something, it is a fast chassis but hard to get the performance consistently. Perhaps the Mercedes being more on rails has similar potential but is easier to extract. This was obvious in the race where Verstappen could hang at the start of the second stint, towards the end he started dropping back. Possibly lapped traffic, but perhaps also a shift in balance as the tires wore out.
I think I must be missing something?

The first 9 laps of the 27 lap second stint saw Verstappen dropping back at an average of 0.31 seconds per lap. The final 9 laps of the second stint saw Verstappen dropping back at an average of 0.36 seconds per lap. In the middle 9 laps of the second stint, Verstappen dropped back an average of 0.39 per lap. The last two laps of the middle portion (laps 34 and 35) did see an uncharacteristic drop in pace*. Excluding those, we see that Verstappen was best able to stay with Hamilton during this middle phase (gap only growing from 4.379 to 5.434). The difference between the opening of the stint and the closing seems to be insignificant (5/100ths a lap)? Especially compared to the middle stint?

I'd have to rewatch the footage but this drop in pace is not likely to be due to traffic. Hamilton had cleared Giovinazzi on lap 32 and then cleared Vettel on lap 36. I don't think either of these would have hindered Verstappen to that extent on laps 34 and 35.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen

I think those laps where Hamilton could pull a second plus per lap was him expending the battery, which means that he has a pace advantage that allows him to save battery, then he expends it on his 5 laps before pitting. Both Verstappen and Hamilton had a slowdown lap before the 5 laps where they made their first stop. Hamilton was able to pull out 1.3 seconds on the slowdown lap meaning he didn't have to charge his ERS as much as Verstappen. After the first stop Hamilton with DAS was able to turn the tires on quicker which let him pull out a second over two laps. Then Verstappen went faster and the next few laps had Hamilton a few tenths quicker until Verstappen went .6 faster and then Hamilton responded by pulling 2.4 seconds in two laps.

Here is where I question if it is the tires going off, Verstappen making a mistake or ERS deficit of the Honda power unit. From there he is consistently slower than Hamilton by an average of .4 until the final pitstop.

When the final stint started DAS helped Hamilton turn the tires on and he set 4 consecutive fastest laps, no doubt by then his battery was drained because the next 3 laps had Verstappen goes faster by an average of .2, after lap 57 he sees he can't make any inroads on Hamilton so he saves battery on the next two laps to try for fastest lap at the end.

As of this race, the chassis is certainly up there, but the deficit to the Mercedes power unit is apparent. It's frustrating because only the chassis can improve due to the frozen power unit concept. Honda could have likely improved along with the chassis and the situation would be even closer now. We will have to wait until next year, and by then both the Mercedes engine and chassis will have improved.

From what I hear Mercedes is making another nice gain for next year's power unit, but it will come at the expense of some aero performance.

Honda is making a modest increase in power, but their biggest gain over this year's power unit is said to be in ERS stamina.

Mercedes seems to always be one step ahead, so the quality of the steps RB and Honda have to take have to be higher.
Last edited by godlameroso on 12 Oct 2020, 18:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Max looses on average 3 tenths and his tires are gone earlier. So indeed towards stint end Lewis has more play room. But Max did set fastest lap so it couldn’t have been incredibly much.

Wynters
Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Ah, interesting!

Agree on the battery strategy. It stood out particularly for me on those last couple of laps where Verstappen lost handfuls of time...then nailed an outstanding lap and a 2-point swing.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Sieper wrote:
12 Oct 2020, 18:23
Max looses on average 3 tenths and his tires are gone earlier. So indeed towards stint end Lewis has more play room. But Max did set fastest lap so it couldn’t have been incredibly much.
I stand by my belief, the chassis has caught up, unfortunately the rule makers have decided to not let the engine catch up as well until next year, so that Mercedes can stay a step ahead. Call me a conspiracy theorist(can't be any worse Hamilton than claiming the FIA are out to get him), but you have to wonder how all these rules conveniently don't affect Mercedes as much as the others.
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