[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[bosyber]

\Maybe an inconvenient truth to you (and also, OT), but perhaps Mercedes the team have (sure partly due to big budget) the best people who are in stable situation working together for a long time now to get the best result, thus having a bit extra on hand at all times, which allows them also to respond to challenges quicker than others (though last year the PU arguably wasn't a strong point, but that's rectified for this and next year). Red Bull are no doubt a great team esp. during the weekend. But somehow every year they end with a very strong car, then during the winter say it's even better, but turn out to have some aeroissues that mean they only come good halfway through the season. On a budget not so far from Mercedes. Seems more management than the FIA hampering them.

[tangodjango]

Max looses on average 3 tenths and his tires are gone earlier. So indeed towards stint end Lewis has more play room. But Max did set fastest lap so it couldn’t have been incredibly much.

I stand by my belief, the chassis has caught up, unfortunately the rule makers have decided to not let the engine catch up as well until next year, so that Mercedes can stay a step ahead. Call me a conspiracy theorist(can't be any worse Hamilton than claiming the FIA are out to get him), but you have to wonder how all these rules conveniently don't affect Mercedes as much as the others.

Aren't Honda bringing an all new engine next year. If you're referring to in season upgrades well it's the same for everyone, but yeah they can hardly block Mercedes from in season upgrades while letting everyone else do so. Also don't overlook that Mercedes have barely brought any major upgrades to the car over the whole season, just some tinkering with wing/barge board modifications depending on circuit. I doubt they are showing everything they have in hand (like every year except 2017/2018).

[PlatinumZealot]

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... Verstappen

I think those laps where Hamilton could pull a second plus per lap was him expending the battery, which means that he has a pace advantage that allows him to save battery, then he expends it on his 5 laps before pitting. Both Verstappen and Hamilton had a slowdown lap before the 5 laps where they made their first stop. Hamilton was able to pull out 1.3 seconds on the slowdown lap meaning he didn't have to charge his ERS as much as Verstappen. After the first stop Hamilton with DAS was able to turn the tires on quicker which let him pull out a second over two laps. Then Verstappen went faster and the next few laps had Hamilton a few tenths quicker until Verstappen went .6 faster and then Hamilton responded by pulling 2.4 seconds in two laps.

Here is where I question if it is the tires going off, Verstappen making a mistake or ERS deficit of the Honda power unit. From there he is consistently slower than Hamilton by an average of .4 until the final pitstop.

When the final stint started DAS helped Hamilton turn the tires on and he set 4 consecutive fastest laps, no doubt by then his battery was drained because the next 3 laps had Verstappen goes faster by an average of .2, after lap 57 he sees he can't make any inroads on Hamilton so he saves battery on the next two laps to try for fastest lap at the end.

As of this race, the chassis is certainly up there, but the deficit to the Mercedes power unit is apparent. It's frustrating because only the chassis can improve due to the frozen power unit concept. Honda could have likely improved along with the chassis and the situation would be even closer now. We will have to wait until next year, and by then both the Mercedes engine and chassis will have improved.

From what I hear Mercedes is making another nice gain for next year's power unit, but it will come at the expense of some aero performance.

Honda is making a modest increase in power, but their biggest gain over this year's power unit is said to be in ERS stamina.

Mercedes seems to always be one step ahead, so the quality of the steps RB and Honda have to take have to be higher.

Hamilton didn't have to save battery to do his FL but Max did.
Max had to back down to a 1:30 to charge up while HAM never went slower than a low 1:29. Engine is programmed for fastest sustainable laps instead of one fast lap. And no extra charge is wasted by carrying over into the next lap except for fastestest lap.
Lewis could do multiple 1:29s in succession. So this immediately says his fastest lap was not down to carrying over any extra charge. You can get extra charge by lift and coast, deeper braking, MGUH control etc.
I cannot say how he did it other than maybe simply a more aggressive style of driving.

[Big Tea]

Max looses on average 3 tenths and his tires are gone earlier. So indeed towards stint end Lewis has more play room. But Max did set fastest lap so it couldn’t have been incredibly much.

I stand by my belief, the chassis has caught up, unfortunately the rule makers have decided to not let the engine catch up as well until next year, so that Mercedes can stay a step ahead. Call me a conspiracy theorist(can't be any worse Hamilton than claiming the FIA are out to get him), but you have to wonder how all these rules conveniently don't affect Mercedes as much as the others.

Aren't Honda bringing an all new engine next year. If you're referring to in season upgrades well it's the same for everyone, but yeah they can hardly block Mercedes from in season upgrades while letting everyone else do so. Also don't overlook that Mercedes have barely brought any major upgrades to the car over the whole season, just some tinkering with wing/barge board modifications depending on circuit. I doubt they are showing everything they have in hand (like every year except 2017/2018).

I think they intended the 'modes' fracas to hit Merc harder than others, but it seems to have backfired

[velizare]

rbr seems to find their balls, aims to get honda ips, and to develop own engines from '22.
https://f1-insider.com/f1/marko-eigener ... ein-thema/

[godlameroso]

Looks like they're doing what I suggested they might do. If they don't have to put up the tooling and startup costs, I'm sure they can pull off a development program to get a decent power unit which will then be frozen from 2023 onwards. The budget cap makes this feasible, and also the fact that there are no in season developments to the power units.

[godlameroso]

Max looses on average 3 tenths and his tires are gone earlier. So indeed towards stint end Lewis has more play room. But Max did set fastest lap so it couldn’t have been incredibly much.

I stand by my belief, the chassis has caught up, unfortunately the rule makers have decided to not let the engine catch up as well until next year, so that Mercedes can stay a step ahead. Call me a conspiracy theorist(can't be any worse Hamilton than claiming the FIA are out to get him), but you have to wonder how all these rules conveniently don't affect Mercedes as much as the others.

Aren't Honda bringing an all new engine next year. If you're referring to in season upgrades well it's the same for everyone, but yeah they can hardly block Mercedes from in season upgrades while letting everyone else do so. Also don't overlook that Mercedes have barely brought any major upgrades to the car over the whole season, just some tinkering with wing/barge board modifications depending on circuit. I doubt they are showing everything they have in hand (like every year except 2017/2018).

Last two years Honda made big in season gains with their power unit updates, the power unit that finished last year was very competitive with Mercedes. We didn't get to see that this year.

[godlameroso]

\Maybe an inconvenient truth to you (and also, OT), but perhaps Mercedes the team have (sure partly due to big budget) the best people who are in stable situation working together for a long time now to get the best result, thus having a bit extra on hand at all times, which allows them also to respond to challenges quicker than others (though last year the PU arguably wasn't a strong point, but that's rectified for this and next year). Red Bull are no doubt a great team esp. during the weekend. But somehow every year they end with a very strong car, then during the winter say it's even better, but turn out to have some aeroissues that mean they only come good halfway through the season. On a budget not so far from Mercedes. Seems more management than the FIA hampering them.

Mercedes has a good team but it isn't just the team and the budget that's on their side, it is also politics.

Mercedes started the new power unit era with a huge advantage, and that huge advantage that was put in place over the course of 3 years prior, and allowed them to take the foot off the gas early and still secure every championship. Every time teams have clawed back ground on Mercedes a regulation change comes in and Mercedes maintains their advantage. Every time, Mercedes has the ability to devote its resources to next year's cars earlier than everyone else, they also have a substantial head start on power unit development. Remember that Honda took until 2017 to introduce their split turbo layout, and that they started 2015 with a rushed power unit. Honda has to take bigger steps than Mercedes on the power unit, and Red Bull has to take higher quality steps to catch up on the chassis front.

So yes, credit to Mercedes, they can keep out developing their rivals. Only because they have started with such an advantage that they can switch their focus earlier than others.

Look how good McLaren was when they switched focus from 2018 to 2019, they started 2019 in a very advanced state, and could switch focus again early for 2020. Again they started well, but their aero concept reached the wall of development, now they're on the back foot again. They'll fall behind Renault and Racing point because they have to re-develop their aero. They have to stand still to take a step forward, meantime RP and Renault are still developing their concept.

Red Bull was in a similar situation, they went with a cape concept and it's taken them time to get it working as intended. Now they are consistently faster than they were last year, that development takes time, so now they are closer to Mercedes, but Mercedes has already been developing next year's car. They already won the championship, and the car they have is still dominant, even if RB catches them this year, next year they'll start strong and RB will still be fighting to catch up.

What does it say about Mercedes if they are caught? Over the last 6 years Mercedes has spent 100 million euros more per year than Red Bull has on their chassis, and matching their budget on the power unit side. The fact RB is so close having spent ~600 million euro less over that time period shows who is the higher quality team. Or maybe just the reality of diminishing returns.

[Big Tea]

rbr seems to find their balls, aims to get honda ips, and to develop own engines from '22.
https://f1-insider.com/f1/marko-eigener ... ein-thema/

I do not read German very well, so may be off track, but we (and RBR) need to remember they can not 'demand' that Honda give them anything. There is a lot of moneys worth and time put into this engine, and all associated gubbins, that Honda probably would prefer to keep to themselves rather than give a competitor.
Engineers from this new engine maker can easily move to a direct road car competitor of Honda and take the fruit of their work and cost overnight.

I really hope to see this up and running though

[Big Tea]

\Maybe an inconvenient truth to you (and also, OT), but perhaps Mercedes the team have (sure partly due to big budget) the best people who are in stable situation working together for a long time now to get the best result, thus having a bit extra on hand at all times, which allows them also to respond to challenges quicker than others (though last year the PU arguably wasn't a strong point, but that's rectified for this and next year). Red Bull are no doubt a great team esp. during the weekend. But somehow every year they end with a very strong car, then during the winter say it's even better, but turn out to have some aeroissues that mean they only come good halfway through the season. On a budget not so far from Mercedes. Seems more management than the FIA hampering them.

Mercedes has a good team but it isn't just the team and the budget that's on their side, it is also politics.

Mercedes started the new power unit era with a huge advantage, and that huge advantage that was put in place over the course of 3 years prior, and allowed them to take the foot off the gas early and still secure every championship. Every time teams have clawed back ground on Mercedes a regulation change comes in and Mercedes maintains their advantage. Every time, Mercedes has the ability to devote its resources to next year's cars earlier than everyone else, they also have a substantial head start on power unit development. Remember that Honda took until 2017 to introduce their split turbo layout, and that they started 2015 with a rushed power unit. Honda has to take bigger steps than Mercedes on the power unit, and Red Bull has to take higher quality steps to catch up on the chassis front.

So yes, credit to Mercedes, they can keep out developing their rivals. Only because they have started with such an advantage that they can switch their focus earlier than others.

Look how good McLaren was when they switched focus from 2018 to 2019, they started 2019 in a very advanced state, and could switch focus again early for 2020. Again they started well, but their aero concept reached the wall of development, now they're on the back foot again. They'll fall behind Renault and Racing point because they have to re-develop their aero. They have to stand still to take a step forward, meantime RP and Renault are still developing their concept.

Red Bull was in a similar situation, they went with a cape concept and it's taken them time to get it working as intended. Now they are consistently faster than they were last year, that development takes time, so now they are closer to Mercedes, but Mercedes has already been developing next year's car. They already won the championship, and the car they have is still dominant, even if RB catches them this year, next year they'll start strong and RB will still be fighting to catch up.

What does it say about Mercedes if they are caught? Over the last 6 years Mercedes has spent 100 million euros more per year than Red Bull has on their chassis, and matching their budget on the power unit side. The fact RB is so close having spent ~600 million euro less over that time period shows who is the higher quality team. Or maybe just the reality of diminishing returns.

Recall though that each time 'regulation change comes in' it would seem to be aimed at reducing Mercedes lead (or in one case Ferrari). These tweaks were not intended to Help Merc, but to slow them down.

They have stayed ahead despite these changes, not because of them (or in my opinion)

[etusch]

Recall though that each time 'regulation change comes in' it would seem to be aimed at reducing Mercedes lead (or in one case Ferrari). These tweaks were not intended to Help Merc, but to slow them down.

They have stayed ahead despite these changes, not because of them (or in my opinion)

They are not trying to slow mercedes down. Maybe trying to look like they are trying to slow them down. But in reality they just trying to keep them dominating. If it weren't the case Fia would not accept das. This is just an example.
Let's compare it once more with motogp. They give teams which are behind, more test and more development but limits top teams. When we look F1 they let Mercedes to develop das in spite of their dominance and it's debatable legality but refuses Honda's ideas. They freeze development when a team dominating with so big margine.
If there isn't mercedes, Verstappen also far away from remaining. They have stop supporting Ferrari mercedes or rich guys as we start to see with Racing Point and maybe we will see further with Aston Martin. They must apply rule fairly to everyone, limit top teams and support teams which are behind. They can put a lower limit of showing them on tv for example. This will be good for their sponsors. But no, they just try to produce artificial hero.

[Marti_EF3]

rbr seems to find their balls, aims to get honda ips, and to develop own engines from '22.
https://f1-insider.com/f1/marko-eigener ... ein-thema/

I do not read German very well, so may be off track, but we (and RBR) need to remember they can not 'demand' that Honda give them anything. There is a lot of moneys worth and time put into this engine, and all associated gubbins, that Honda probably would prefer to keep to themselves rather than give a competitor.
Engineers from this new engine maker can easily move to a direct road car competitor of Honda and take the fruit of their work and cost overnight.

I really hope to see this up and running though

That's where Mugen takes part, because they own all bases of Honda in MK. They don't need to buy the IP, only to invest in the development helped by Honda through Mugen. That's where I think the agreement will be

[Zynerji]

rbr seems to find their balls, aims to get honda ips, and to develop own engines from '22.
https://f1-insider.com/f1/marko-eigener ... ein-thema/

Lots of tid-bits in that article...

Hulk driving a RedBull with a full weekend would have been something the world would have loved to see.

[godlameroso]

The only outside driver that RB are probably even considering is Russell but he's a Mercedes boy. Him and Max in the same car would be the driver pairing of the century. Mercedes knows he's champion material, so they're not going to let him in that Mercedes until Hamilton is gone. He has contractual obligations so I don't see that happening at all.

[Zynerji]

The only outside driver that RB are probably even considering is Russell but he's a Mercedes boy. Him and Max in the same car would be the driver pairing of the century. Mercedes knows he's champion material, so they're not going to let him in that Mercedes until Hamilton is gone. He has contractual obligations so I don't see that happening at all.

I could totally see Merc loaning Russell to RBR if Hamilton locks in for another 2 years.

Why wouldn't they? I'm sure George would love to be in a much better car than the Williams. And Ham/Bot seem to be a perfect Alpha/Beta pairing. I doubt the harmony would sustain in a Ham/Rus lineup.