[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[godlameroso]

The only outside driver that RB are probably even considering is Russell but he's a Mercedes boy. Him and Max in the same car would be the driver pairing of the century. Mercedes knows he's champion material, so they're not going to let him in that Mercedes until Hamilton is gone. He has contractual obligations so I don't see that happening at all.

I could totally see Merc loaning Russell to RBR if Hamilton locks in for another 2 years.

Why wouldn't they? I'm sure George would love to be in a much better car than the Williams. And Ham/Bot seem to be a perfect Alpha/Beta pairing. I doubt the harmony would sustain in a Ham/Rus lineup.

I don't think they would unless they got something in return, so at least cash and Gasley to Williams, demote Albon to TR, and put Russell next to Verstappen?

[Big Tea]

Recall though that each time 'regulation change comes in' it would seem to be aimed at reducing Mercedes lead (or in one case Ferrari). These tweaks were not intended to Help Merc, but to slow them down.

They have stayed ahead despite these changes, not because of them (or in my opinion)

They are not trying to slow mercedes down. Maybe trying to look like they are trying to slow them down. But in reality they just trying to keep them dominating. If it weren't the case Fia would not accept das. This is just an example.
Let's compare it once more with motogp. They give teams which are behind, more test and more development but limits top teams. When we look F1 they let Mercedes to develop das in spite of their dominance and it's debatable legality but refuses Honda's ideas. They freeze development when a team dominating with so big margine.
If there isn't mercedes, Verstappen also far away from remaining. They have stop supporting Ferrari mercedes or rich guys as we start to see with Racing Point and maybe we will see further with Aston Martin. They must apply rule fairly to everyone, limit top teams and support teams which are behind. They can put a lower limit of showing them on tv for example. This will be good for their sponsors. But no, they just try to produce artificial hero.

There are rules. neither side can blatantly disregard them. So D.A.S is legal according to the rules and can not be 'banned'. OK, it worked in Merc favour, but that was fair.

The other rules I feel were intended to stop merc running away, but then again a Haas fan would probably swear they were intended to knobble Haas. So it is one of those things. The 'modes' thing is 100% aimed at Merc and right up until qualli the first week of implementation everyone else thought so, including FIA.

We all have to go with our feelings here so I will not argue. Yes, Ferrari got pinged, but it had probably got to the point that had FIA not acted, details would have been given to the press.

In reality, Fia are probably trying to be fair, but can not win. As I say there are rules that have to be followed, and if the teams will not accept changes, FIA F1 will have problems getting them through. Turkeys do not vote for Christmas, not even the smallest turkeys.

[velizare]

rbr seems to find their balls, aims to get honda ips, and to develop own engines from '22.
https://f1-insider.com/f1/marko-eigener ... ein-thema/

I do not read German very well, so may be off track, but we (and RBR) need to remember they can not 'demand' that Honda give them anything. There is a lot of moneys worth and time put into this engine, and all associated gubbins, that Honda probably would prefer to keep to themselves rather than give a competitor.
Engineers from this new engine maker can easily move to a direct road car competitor of Honda and take the fruit of their work and cost overnight.

I really hope to see this up and running though

there are multiple ifs in this story.
#0 matteschitz has to pay the bills. since marko is speaking to the press about this, i take this as granted;
#1 marko has to convice fia to ban inseason engine developments in 2022 (similar to this year);
#2 then rbr has to convince hpd to sell the ips to them;
rbr is not in the car industry, so by selling them the ips it wont hurt honda. however honda must be assured by rbr their secrets wont get into rhe hands of a 3rd party like daimler or fiat.

[Big Tea]

rbr seems to find their balls, aims to get honda ips, and to develop own engines from '22.
https://f1-insider.com/f1/marko-eigener ... ein-thema/

I do not read German very well, so may be off track, but we (and RBR) need to remember they can not 'demand' that Honda give them anything. There is a lot of moneys worth and time put into this engine, and all associated gubbins, that Honda probably would prefer to keep to themselves rather than give a competitor.
Engineers from this new engine maker can easily move to a direct road car competitor of Honda and take the fruit of their work and cost overnight.

I really hope to see this up and running though

there are multiple ifs in this story.
#0 matteschitz has to pay the bills. since marko is speaking to the press about this, i take this as granted;
#1 marko has to convice fia to ban inseason engine developments in 2022 (similar to this year);
#2 then rbr has to convince hpd to sell the ips to them;
rbr is not in the car industry, so by selling them the ips it wont hurt honda. however honda must be assured by rbr their secrets wont get into rhe hands of a 3rd party like daimler or fiat.

As I say, by agreeing to #2, it is letting 'secrets' out of the family. Unless Honda select personnel for this project they are putting their secrets 'out there'. The perfect answer all round is to have Honda staff out on loan to key positions.
But apparently this is why they are withdrawing (need of the staff)

Edit. I dont think their 'secrets' would be any good to the other F1 teams, they seem to have diverged. But there are many other companies who could benefit from them

[Marti_EF3]

I do not read German very well, so may be off track, but we (and RBR) need to remember they can not 'demand' that Honda give them anything. There is a lot of moneys worth and time put into this engine, and all associated gubbins, that Honda probably would prefer to keep to themselves rather than give a competitor.
Engineers from this new engine maker can easily move to a direct road car competitor of Honda and take the fruit of their work and cost overnight.

I really hope to see this up and running though

there are multiple ifs in this story.
#0 matteschitz has to pay the bills. since marko is speaking to the press about this, i take this as granted;
#1 marko has to convice fia to ban inseason engine developments in 2022 (similar to this year);
#2 then rbr has to convince hpd to sell the ips to them;
rbr is not in the car industry, so by selling them the ips it wont hurt honda. however honda must be assured by rbr their secrets wont get into rhe hands of a 3rd party like daimler or fiat.

As I say, by agreeing to #2, it is letting 'secrets' out of the family. Unless Honda select personnel for this project they are putting their secrets 'out there'. The perfect answer all round is to have Honda staff out on loan to key positions.
But apparently this is why they are withdrawing (need of the staff)

Edit. I dont think their 'secrets' would be any good to the other F1 teams, they seem to have diverged. But there are many other companies who could benefit from them

They don't need to buy any IP. Take it as a loan, branding the PU as Mugen. And using the staff of Honda in MK and also the suport of Honda. I see it more viable than Honda selling their secrets to a 3rd party

P.S: Also Honda says they are open to help, so I see them "giving" the IP through Mugen for free, and then RB only need to invest to upgrade the engine using the infrastructure Honda have

[etusch]

There are rules. neither side can blatantly disregard them. So D.A.S is legal according to the rules and can not be 'banned'. OK, it worked in Merc favour, but that was fair.

Das is not legal but if it is enough to be legal by just accepting stewards, fia said to mercedes "this is not legal but if you do it in this way we will accept", accepted and after that mercedes worked on it, then fia banned it ( this also means "we only accept this for mercedes, don't develop your own" for other teams) and always talking about budget cap.
I don't know if it is because of my bad english or you don't want to understand me. Das protested and this means it not undoubtedly legal. even if it is legal or not, it is not my main point. The main point is why fia accept this while mercedes is already favorite team. Well they accepted this, why they banned for next year. If they didn't allow from very beginning mercedes also wouldn't invest on it and would work on other areas. (But of course this also good commercial for mercedes " we innovate permanently, fia banning it to slow down us, but we beat them too with whole grid" for people who just looks results.")
They are talking about budget cap, then make rule change by leaving teams developing something new which needs more spendings like new floor for next season after freezing development. Because of tyres. If there is an issue with tyres, change tyres.

[Big Tea]

There are rules. neither side can blatantly disregard them. So D.A.S is legal according to the rules and can not be 'banned'. OK, it worked in Merc favour, but that was fair.

Das is not legal but if it is enough to be legal by just accepting stewards, fia said to mercedes "this is not legal but if you do it in this way we will accept", accepted and after that mercedes worked on it, then fia banned it ( this also means "we only accept this for mercedes, don't develop your own" for other teams) and always talking about budget cap.
I don't know if it is because of my bad english or you don't want to understand me. Das protested and this means it not undoubtedly legal. even if it is legal or not, it is not my main point. The main point is why fia accept this while mercedes is already favorite team. Well they accepted this, why they banned for next year. If they didn't allow from very beginning mercedes also wouldn't invest on it and would work on other areas. (But of course this also good commercial for mercedes " we innovate permanently, fia banning it to slow down us, but we beat them too with whole grid" for people who just looks results.")
They are talking about budget cap, then make rule change by leaving teams developing something new which needs more spendings like new floor for next season after freezing development. Because of tyres. If there is an issue with tyres, change tyres.

There is no rule preventing DAS. There is a rule PUT in place from next year outlawing it.

Your English is fine, no problem with it at all. If I can make a comparison though. A car drives through a field at 80 kph. There is no rule against it. People in the field see it and do not think it is right, so the introduce a 50kph limit in that field from that point on. The car was not doing anything wrong at the time, but it will be from the time the sign goes up.

There are very many things in F1 like that from way back. The high wing on sticks, 6 wheels, fans etc.
It is not illegal if there is no law against it

Anyway, that has been done to death now, and I think the gain is marginal at best.

Every new rule needs spending on. The only way to save money is to not change the rules, and the rules have to be well written from Go. Any team that wants to can use DAS this year. It is not worth the commitment for 8 or 9 races

[littlebigcat]

There is no value in Red Bull in developing engines, I reckon this loud open talk about purchasing the Honda F1 engine operation is nothing more than a bargaining tool to be used against Renault. They reality is if there was an honest attempt being made there wouldn't be so much talking to the press.

[Zynerji]

There is no value in Red Bull in developing engines, I reckon this loud open talk about purchasing the Honda F1 engine operation is nothing more than a bargaining tool to be used against Renault. They reality is if there was an honest attempt being made there wouldn't be so much talking to the press.

I think the opposite. The more positive feedback to the media talking about it, the more pressure it puts on Honda's board to help make it happen.

[NL_Fer]

The freeze of development has more purposes.

1st it cuts cost as Redbull has to pay for it and with development is becomes to expensive.

2nd Redbull doesn’t need to acquire the IP. Honda can lend the permission to Mugen to produce the powerunit and Redbull pays Mugen. It could be an acceptance compromise for the Japanese.

I doubt any if the other 3 manufacturers want to spend another 500M the next 5 years.

[GhostF1]

There is no value in Red Bull in developing engines, I reckon this loud open talk about purchasing the Honda F1 engine operation is nothing more than a bargaining tool to be used against Renault. They reality is if there was an honest attempt being made there wouldn't be so much talking to the press.

I think the opposite. The more positive feedback to the media talking about it, the more pressure it puts on Honda's board to help make it happen.

I agree with this view, I think the more attention the idea of Red Bull taking the engine gets, the more likely Honda will be open to the idea.

[foneFanatiq]

https://f1-insider.com/en/formula1/mark ... ssion=true

Dr. Helmut Marko in AvD Motorsport Magazine in an interview with F1-Insider.com about the future engine manufacturer, the driver question and Max Verstappen.

Many question marks at Red Bull: Who will drive alongside Max Verstappen in 2021? What will happen for Red Bull after Honda’s withdrawal? How tight is Verstappen in the saddle? Red Bull motorsport consultant Dr. Helmut Marko brings light into the darkness in an interview with F1-Insider.com in AvD Motosport magazine.

Helmut Marko about…

… the future engine partner

Marko openly confirms that the most probable option is to develop an own engine based on the current Honda engine.

Marko: “Provided that the talks are positive, we would prefer to take over Honda’s base and then prepare the engines in Milton Keynes. But that is only possible if there is a development stop from the first race in 2022. We need a decision from the FIA as soon as possible. If that decision is positive, the next step is to reach an agreement with Honda. We have several buildings and halls in Milton Keynes, and we are currently looking into where we could implement this.”

More to read: VW boss surprises with F1 flirt

Why a customer engine makes less sense: “All manufacturers have their own team and build the chassis and the engine in one casting. So we would get something and we would have to build our chassis around it. We would always be faced with a technical solution that we would have to accept. That is why we favor the Honda solution. But it needs some parameters, like a frozen engine regulation from 2022 on.”



(Photo by Mark Thompson/Getty Images)
Red Bull believes that they will have a winning engine in the rear by 2022. Marko: “Currently, the difference between engine manufacturers is 15, maximum 20 hp. The Ferrari engine is a little bit further back, but I assume they will catch up soon. In addition, there are discussions about adjusting the engine performance by fuel flow and such parameters. So we are on the right track.”

Good for Red Bull: With Andy Cowell, the Mercedes master engine builder will also be on the market in 2022. “But we’re not there yet,” Marko says, but laughs at F1 insider Ralf Bach’s comment: “We’re gratefully acknowledging the suggestion!”

[PlatinumZealot]

there are multiple ifs in this story.
#0 matteschitz has to pay the bills. since marko is speaking to the press about this, i take this as granted;
#1 marko has to convice fia to ban inseason engine developments in 2022 (similar to this year);
#2 then rbr has to convince hpd to sell the ips to them;
rbr is not in the car industry, so by selling them the ips it wont hurt honda. however honda must be assured by rbr their secrets wont get into rhe hands of a 3rd party like daimler or fiat.

As I say, by agreeing to #2, it is letting 'secrets' out of the family. Unless Honda select personnel for this project they are putting their secrets 'out there'. The perfect answer all round is to have Honda staff out on loan to key positions.
But apparently this is why they are withdrawing (need of the staff)

Edit. I dont think their 'secrets' would be any good to the other F1 teams, they seem to have diverged. But there are many other companies who could benefit from them

They don't need to buy any IP. Take it as a loan, branding the PU as Mugen. And using the staff of Honda in MK and also the suport of Honda. I see it more viable than Honda selling their secrets to a 3rd party

P.S: Also Honda says they are open to help, so I see them "giving" the IP through Mugen for free, and then RB only need to invest to upgrade the engine using the infrastructure Honda have

The latest is that Honda has ruled out Mugen. The engines are just too complicated for Mugen to come up to speed with.

They are looking at operating through Milton Keynes Honda or sending Honda people into build a little engine shop at RedBull itself. Perhaps likely just to assemble maintain and tune..

[Marti_EF3]

As I say, by agreeing to #2, it is letting 'secrets' out of the family. Unless Honda select personnel for this project they are putting their secrets 'out there'. The perfect answer all round is to have Honda staff out on loan to key positions.
But apparently this is why they are withdrawing (need of the staff)

Edit. I dont think their 'secrets' would be any good to the other F1 teams, they seem to have diverged. But there are many other companies who could benefit from them

They don't need to buy any IP. Take it as a loan, branding the PU as Mugen. And using the staff of Honda in MK and also the suport of Honda. I see it more viable than Honda selling their secrets to a 3rd party

P.S: Also Honda says they are open to help, so I see them "giving" the IP through Mugen for free, and then RB only need to invest to upgrade the engine using the infrastructure Honda have

The latest is that Honda has ruled out Mugen. The engines are just too complicated for Mugen to come up to speed with.

They are looking at operating through Milton Keynes Honda or sending Honda people into build a little engine shop at RedBull itself. Perhaps likely just to assemble maintain and tune..

I mean, use Mugen as the brand of the PU (since officially Honda is out) because Honda gives permission to use the IP for free, and then with RB investment Honda can keep working on the PU in MK and maybe some support from Sakura

[WaikeCU]

As I say, by agreeing to #2, it is letting 'secrets' out of the family. Unless Honda select personnel for this project they are putting their secrets 'out there'. The perfect answer all round is to have Honda staff out on loan to key positions.
But apparently this is why they are withdrawing (need of the staff)

Edit. I dont think their 'secrets' would be any good to the other F1 teams, they seem to have diverged. But there are many other companies who could benefit from them

They don't need to buy any IP. Take it as a loan, branding the PU as Mugen. And using the staff of Honda in MK and also the suport of Honda. I see it more viable than Honda selling their secrets to a 3rd party

P.S: Also Honda says they are open to help, so I see them "giving" the IP through Mugen for free, and then RB only need to invest to upgrade the engine using the infrastructure Honda have

The latest is that Honda has ruled out Mugen. The engines are just too complicated for Mugen to come up to speed with.

They are looking at operating through Milton Keynes Honda or sending Honda people into build a little engine shop at RedBull itself. Perhaps likely just to assemble maintain and tune..

The Honda PU with some dash of Ilmor magic? RB and Ilmor have worked together before with Renault PU. So they do have hybrid era knowledge.