[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[godlameroso]

But its the same rules for everyone. You can not have staggered starting times, and if we did people would say 'they have far more resources than us, they can get more done than we can in the time. It is favouring them again'

Agreed that many times before Merc was starting earlier than others. But this time the rule change is minor so when developing this years car that can be applied to next years car it is also beneficial for next years car. So flow conditioning development on the front wing should not be a waste of time.

This kind of narrative good be part of psychological warfare: the mercs are unbeatable!

The rule change for next year has actually turned out to be a pretty major one.

A 10% reduction in downforce from areas of the car that are critical in producing efficient downforce.

No moor floor slots. A significantly reduced floor surface area. A change in the fins around the rear brake ducts. And a reduction in the length of the vertical diffuser slats. (Just to name a few.)

The floor/diffuser are vital areas, especially for high-rake cars. To be able to claw back that downforce efficiently is going to be a major aerodynamic engineering challenge.

I too thought it was going to be worthwhile to just continuing developing '20 cars all year back when I wasn't paying much attention to the '21 rules changes. But now I think the scope of the changes are almost on par with the FW/barge board/RW tweaks of '19.

Big unknown is if a cape or J vane setup is going to be better for next year.

High rake car is not a disadvantage, the RB 16 was simply behind on development. It still is, the cape, and new brake ducts took a while to get on top of. Their rear wing endplates took a while to develop, and now the innovations it has brought for the front wing and rear suspension.

All of that takes time to develop and dial in. Mercedes had very developed brake ducts at the start, Red Bull is catching up with their own version.

The loss of floor area is going to force even tighter sidepods. Which means more extreme cooling solutions. I wonder how much that's going to cost.

[gshevlin]

I have read comments from several TDs this Summer that several teams are investigating which rake concept to implement in 2021, as a result of the aero rule changes.
Of course, by now, all of those teams will have had to finalize their approach. The build period for the 2021 cars is upon us.

[godlameroso]

I have read comments from several TDs this Summer that several teams are investigating which rake concept to implement in 2021, as a result of the aero rule changes.
Of course, by now, all of those teams will have had to finalize their approach. The build period for the 2021 cars is upon us.

If it becomes harder to seal the floor, then whatever the team will be forced to not just redesign their rake concept but the front and rear of the car along with the diffuser.

[etusch]

Mercedes stopped developing its 2020 Formula 1 "a long time ago", according to team boss Toto Wolff, as its advantage over Red Bull appeared to narrow at the Nurburgring.
Mercedes has won 9 of the 11 races so far this season and is on course to win both championships for the seventh year in a row, its drivers sitting first and second in the drivers' championship.

But Red Bull appeared to make a step towards Mercedes' level of performance across last weekend's Eifel Grand Prix after bringing a series of updates for its RB16 car to the race.

Max Verstappen took provisional pole ahead of the final runs in Q3, and was able to stay close to the Mercedes duo of Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas in the opening stages of the race.

Teammate Alexander Albon also said he thought Red Bull was now "a lot closer" to Mercedes thanks to its latest updates.

Mercedes has not released any updates for its W11 car for a number of races, with team boss Wolff saying it had halted its development a while back.

"We finished [the updates] a long time ago, and that has always been in the past," Wolff said.

"What we looked at is a very thoroughly thought through decision, because not in every championship can you afford to close the book early.

"But the rules changed quite a lot for next year and in that respect, like in previous years, we decided to switch to next year's car.

"This is why you can see the shifting performance between the teams. We always have a very strong start and middle of the season, and then whoever continues to develop is strong at the end."

Although the 2020 cars will largely be carried over into 2021 as part of a cost-saving measure resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic, teams will be allowed to develop certain areas of the chassis via a token system.

Wolff's thoughts were echoed by Mercedes trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin, who acknowledged Red Bull was making progress more quickly at the moment.

"I think they are developing quicker than we are at the moment," said Shovlin.

"And we've seen that progressively. But to be honest, we've seen that in most of the recent years, they tend not to start as strongly as we do. I can't really think of a year recently where they've not been with us by the end.

"So if we see that trend continue, then the remaining races are going to get tougher, and it will be harder to try and keep getting the pole on Saturday and winning on a Sunday."

Red Bull has claimed a single race win this year, courtesy of Verstappen at the 70th Anniversary Grand Prix, and sits 180 points behind Mercedes in the constructors' standings.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... o/4892094/

[Wouter]

Translated by GT. Two quotes from an interview with Helmut Marko about the engine and Alex Albon.

So no Mercedes engine.
That leaves three options: Ferrari, Renault and your own engine.
Dr. Helmut Marko: Right.

Having your own engine sounds charming, but how realistic is that?
Dr. Helmut Marko: Our own engine is the priority. However, this can only be achieved if the engine and the surrounding area are completely frozen by the end of 2021 at the latest.

Does that mean you will be politically lobbying for a complete engine freeze in the near future?
Dr. Helmut Marko: That is very clear to us. This complex engine is difficult enough if you only take care of maintenance and assembly. We are currently investigating how this is possible from our side. But further development is not possible if you don't have a technology center like Sakura. We neither want to build that, nor can we finance it. We don't want to or can't finance it.

If your own engine doesn't work, who would your preference be: Renault or Ferrari?
Dr. Helmut Marko: We have to have more detailed discussions there. But the priority is with the Honda project. There are also many questions to be clarified with Honda. The talks will take place in October / November.

Until then there will be no concrete contact with Renault or Ferrari?
Dr. Helmut Marko: As long as Honda is an option, we won't talk specifically to the other two.


Albon under pressure: will Hülkenberg switch to Red Bull?

But only with one driver ... So far you have held a protective hand over Alexander Albon. Most recently, in an interview with Sport1, they struck a different note. Have I interpreted that correctly?
Dr. Helmut Marko: We need a competitive driver. The performance in Sochi was not justified. Nürburgring was mixed, but much better. It is bad luck that a stone then breaks through the radiator. The brake plates ... The speed when catching up was again reasonably okay.

You said last that Albon will not be questioned as long as the development is positive. But in the end it wasn't ...
Dr. Helmut Marko: Well, he was much closer to Verstappen at the Nürburgring.

By when do you want to make a decision?
Dr. Helmut Marko: There is no rush. The pilots that you always write to us in the cockpit - whether in English or German media - are both available. As far as I know, pretty much all the seats are taken. A Haas cockpit is not interesting for everyone. The two Haas cockpits are said to be more or less taken.

Who would you prefer: Hulkenberg or Perez?
We take the one that is more promising for the team. That is where you will begin to analyze precisely - prophylactically. It's not about who I prefer, but who is better in the overall package.

https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/form ... der-albon/

[PlatinumZealot]

I have read comments from several TDs this Summer that several teams are investigating which rake concept to implement in 2021, as a result of the aero rule changes.
Of course, by now, all of those teams will have had to finalize their approach. The build period for the 2021 cars is upon us.

If it becomes harder to seal the floor, then whatever the team will be forced to not just redesign their rake concept but the front and rear of the car along with the diffuser.

Weren't the floors were even narrower than that in the past rules? I don't think there will be problem sealing the floor at all.

The 2009 McLaren even ran a floor even more drastic.

All the engineers will do is create a stronger vortex device to seal between the wheels and the diffuser even more.

[zibby43]

Agreed that many times before Merc was starting earlier than others. But this time the rule change is minor so when developing this years car that can be applied to next years car it is also beneficial for next years car. So flow conditioning development on the front wing should not be a waste of time.

This kind of narrative good be part of psychological warfare: the mercs are unbeatable!

The rule change for next year has actually turned out to be a pretty major one.

A 10% reduction in downforce from areas of the car that are critical in producing efficient downforce.

No moor floor slots. A significantly reduced floor surface area. A change in the fins around the rear brake ducts. And a reduction in the length of the vertical diffuser slats. (Just to name a few.)

The floor/diffuser are vital areas, especially for high-rake cars. To be able to claw back that downforce efficiently is going to be a major aerodynamic engineering challenge.

I too thought it was going to be worthwhile to just continuing developing '20 cars all year back when I wasn't paying much attention to the '21 rules changes. But now I think the scope of the changes are almost on par with the FW/barge board/RW tweaks of '19.

Big unknown is if a cape or J vane setup is going to be better for next year.

High rake car is not a disadvantage, the RB 16 was simply behind on development. It still is, the cape, and new brake ducts took a while to get on top of. Their rear wing endplates took a while to develop, and now the innovations it has brought for the front wing and rear suspension.

All of that takes time to develop and dial in. Mercedes had very developed brake ducts at the start, Red Bull is catching up with their own version.

The loss of floor area is going to force even tighter sidepods. Which means more extreme cooling solutions. I wonder how much that's going to cost.

'21 floor/diffuser cuts are definitely going to hurt high-rake cars incrementally more than cars that run less extreme rake angles. So much of the success/peak performance of high-rake cars depends on sealing the floor on a consistent basis.

Turbulent airflow, whether it's coming from deformation of the front/rear tires or elsewhere, can interfere with that seal. Next year's reg changes take away 2 of the critical tools used to help deal with that turbulence.

No more floor slots to create a vortex along the floor that prevents it from sabotaged by wake from the front wheels. And no more holes at the rear of the floor (these are holes, as opposed to slots) to prevent tire squirt interference with the diffuser from the rear tires.

But the loss of those holes/openings at the rear of the floor are going to hurt Merc just as much.

Major headache for all the teams.

Can you explain further what you mean about the cape vs. J-vanes?

It seems that most teams on the grid are moving toward the cape for vortex management. Curious as to what '21 has to do with potentially moving back to the J-vane noses?

[godlameroso]

Ferrari, Haas, Alpha Tauri, Alpha Romeo, all use a J vane setup. The J-vane setup allows more airflow to reach the bargeboards, which in turn gives more airflow to shed a vortex that will make up for the slots on the floor in front of the rear tires. The cape setup, diverts more flow directly to the floor, this weakens the vortex you can shed from the bargeboards.

I agree though that RB may have to lower the rake of the car, and will likely require a reworking of the floor and the rear suspension. Not to mention other tweaks up stream. I hope they don't spend half the season chasing a good setup.

[zibby43]

Ferrari, Haas, Alpha Tauri, Alpha Romeo, all use a J vane setup. The J-vane setup allows more airflow to reach the bargeboards, which in turn gives more airflow to shed a vortex that will make up for the slots on the floor in front of the rear tires. The cape setup, diverts more flow directly to the floor, this weakens the vortex you can shed from the bargeboards.

I agree though that RB may have to lower the rake of the car, and will likely require a reworking of the floor and the rear suspension. Not to mention other tweaks up stream. I hope they don't spend half the season chasing a good setup.

Yep, the Ferrari customer teams are definitely one of the last J-vane holdovers. You think AT can incorporate the cape for '21?

It's one of those innovations, similar to the high-top side pod inlets, that is filtering down to the rest of the grid. Just think it takes some time to understand. I think I remember a "secret aerodynamicist" piece from over the summer where he thinks even Ferrari will go this route, sooner rather than later.

Now that Red Bull's latest update really helped to sort out the balance of the car, hopefully they can start to devote some more resources to '21. Then we'll get close racing to end the season, plus a chance for close racing right from the outset of '21.

[McG]

Red Bull says its preferred option for Formula 1 engines in 2022 is to take over the Honda project and run the power units itself.
With Honda having announced that it is to quit F1 at the end of 2021, Red Bull is having to weigh up what it does for a power supply longer term.


While Renault could be forced to supply Red Bull with engines as part of F1’s sporting regulations, the team's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko says that the Milton Keynes outfit is actually eyeing another option.

It says that, providing the FIA agrees to an engine freeze from the start of 2022, which means Red Bull would not have to worry with developing the power unit, then it could take over the entire Honda project.

Marko suggests that factory space available near its factory, plus the close proximity of Honda's current UK facilities, make such an option realistic.

Speaking to German channel Sport1, Marko said: “It’s a very complex subject. Just as complex as these engines are.

“We would favour, provided the talks with Honda are positive, that we take over the IP rights and everything that is necessary, to then prepare and deploy the engines ourselves in Milton Keynes.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... n=widget-1

This is massive if they do take over the Honda engine IP.

[XRayF1]

Red Bull says its preferred option for Formula 1 engines in 2022 is to take over the Honda project and run the power units itself.
With Honda having announced that it is to quit F1 at the end of 2021, Red Bull is having to weigh up what it does for a power supply longer term.


While Renault could be forced to supply Red Bull with engines as part of F1’s sporting regulations, the team's motorsport advisor Helmut Marko says that the Milton Keynes outfit is actually eyeing another option.

It says that, providing the FIA agrees to an engine freeze from the start of 2022, which means Red Bull would not have to worry with developing the power unit, then it could take over the entire Honda project.

Marko suggests that factory space available near its factory, plus the close proximity of Honda's current UK facilities, make such an option realistic.

Speaking to German channel Sport1, Marko said: “It’s a very complex subject. Just as complex as these engines are.

“We would favour, provided the talks with Honda are positive, that we take over the IP rights and everything that is necessary, to then prepare and deploy the engines ourselves in Milton Keynes.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... n=widget-1

This is massive if they do take over the Honda engine IP.

Apologies, but why would any other engine supplier/manufacturer agree to limit himself by freezing development on the PU?
Thus handover a substantial advantage to RBR?

The FIA procedural approach to such a PU dev freeze is limited to two options for the 2022 season - and please correct me (gently ).

A. Change of rules due to safety reasons.
B. Change by all F1 Teams unanimously, but with an implementation lead time of 18 months (I vaguely recall that period).

(A) I can not see how this may be argued.

(B) Well ...
(1) I can see the development cost angle, but even Honda did not step out because of the actual costs for the F1 programme.
At least this was the consensus of the majority of this forum, inline to what Honda stated officially.

Ferrari will not limit itself due to what they lost last year (and they are the one constant in F1, so there is zero chance of them withdrawing from F1). Renault just saw what they are capable of and had their F1 programme revigorated by their management (Alpine!), and Mercedes with Hybrid Power is their current mainstream approach for their cars.
Additionally, all teams just signed the new 'Concorde Agreement' to 2026, if I recall correctly.

While there is an exit clause in this new agreement (Source: Marko), chances are rather high that the existing teams intend to stay until the end of the contracted period.

So, again, why would any team, manufacturer or client team alike, give up such a fundemental advantage?

(2) Additionally, even if the teams would consent, this unanimous vote would have to happen actually now (based on the 18 months I mentioned earlier) and I wonder why nobody in the press would not have heard anything about this by now. Or at least the intent to do so.

My personal opinion is that Marko is trying to pressure FIA to do something in order to give RBR a competitive PU.
And as there is much burned Earth between Renault and RBR, and Ferrari currently not having the best of PUs, this can only mean the Mercedes PU.

Preposterous?

[Marti_EF3]

Or maybe that's to put pressure to Honda to keep spending a little and developing the PU with RB money. Not a works deal, but like a third party, accesing the IP via Mugen. Surely a lot of people at Honda don't want to see their PU thrown at some museum and then a repeat of the 2009 Brawn

[JordanMugen]

So, again, why would any team, manufacturer or client team alike, give up such a fundemental advantage?

If the power units are equalised and then frozen, manufacturers won't need to flush money away on archaic combustion engine development. That will be very attractive to them, given how much they all need to spend on EVs to meet EU CO2 fleet average targets (95g/km in 2021, 68g/km in 2030).

[noname]

So, again, why would any team, manufacturer or client team alike, give up such a fundemental advantage?

If the power units are equalised and then frozen, manufacturers won't need to flush money away on archaic combustion engine development. That will be very attractive to them, given how much they all need to spend on EVs to meet EU CO2 fleet average targets (95g/km in 2021, 68g/km in 2030).

Just because power units will be frozen, does not mean there will be no developments around them. Efforts will shift toward ancillarries (like cooling), oils, fuels, operating strategies, etc.
If Mercedes was able to spend >600k GBP on lightweight silver paint, I can imagine teams pourings millions i.e. into low-resistance HV cables.

Restricting developments will only increase cost of finding the gain, and they will always look for something giving them an edge.

[Wouter]

Could someone who speak Japanese say what Koji Watanabe, Chief Director of Brand Communications is saying exactly in this article?

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/635338?all

Google Tr:

Mr. Koji Watanabe, the General Manager of Honda's Brand Communication Division, attended the remote conference held on Friday the 16th.

'At the moment we haven't received any requests from Mr. Marco, but we've heard a level of talk that he's looking at using the Honda power unit. We have a good relationship (with Red Bull) and we want to work with them to make it easier for them to work with us. If we receive a request from Red Bull, we will consider it, but at the moment we are not considering anything.