[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[diffuser]

It may be rubbish, but that is why I used words like "gives me this impression." "I believe that this" "I do expect". Those words usually denote speculation, not preaching with certainty. Attacking people's opinion with personal attacks and not addressing the points seems incredibly cowardly and unproductive considering the fact the downvote is anonymous.

Yep only cowards downvote.

Naturally I'll get a down vote for this.

Er, one should down vote when someone says something that is demonstrably incorrect. It's not about about cowardice, it's about facts. That's what the downvote is for. Up vote for stuff that is beneficial, downvote when something is incorrect.

Downvoting because of spite or malice is just childish and deserves to be slapped down.

P.S. - I haven't used a vote of either sort in this thread for some time, in case you think I've been down voting.

Nope. I would never think that someone that would reply to me would downvote me.

Nor do I really care if I'm down voted. I enjoy the forum but I don'treally get caught up in all that.

I agree with you and I would like to add that downvioting someone for not liking the contents of the post, regardless if they are right or wrong, is sad.

BTW that doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the up votes I get to counteract the negative downvotes. Those mightly appreciated!

[ispano6]

He'd be doing a bit better than last year, but I don't think he'd be matching Verstappen. It takes a while to re-wire your brain when you've been conditioned to drive a certain way all your life.

Honda and RedBull have data that indicates when Albon is confident in the car that he can match Verstappen closely. It seems they think Albon is a driver with a driving style closer to Verstappen and that Gasly wasn't as close in the same machinery. Albon is in a confidence slump and with tracks he's relatively new to and tires that don't give him the grip he needs suffers quite a bit. Imola will probably be a tough race as would the Turkish GP since he's probably not as experienced on those tracks either. A track like Silverstone or Suzuka would be a different story.

Perhaps, he certainly did impress more than Gasly last year at RB. What is worrying is that this didn't seem to stretch to this year - including on tracks that are familiar. And yeah, there are new tracks on the calendar, but those are unfamiliar to most drivers, so it shouldn't be a big factor.

Couple unfamiliarity with a wet track, cold tyres and a melee swarm then they all add up to be a big factor in having confidence to push. It's no secret the RB16 is a harder animal to tame than the AT01, let alone on an ice-skating rink. Red Bull seem to not be able to get heat into the tires or are inherently slippery cars, say, compared to the McLarens that had pretty unreal grip at the start but were overtaken once Verstappen got the tires into the right window. Albon has a tendency to push in the wrong places and locks up and ruins his tires. The RB16 does look like a much harder car to drive than the RB15/AT01 and when you don't have confidence it makes a huge difference.

[Marti_EF3]

Race pace of Portugal GP



Stint 1



Stint 2



Stint 3

[etusch]

I just wanted to remember.

[Wouter]

Interview with Helmut Marko. "No blackmail, but fact" Google Translated.

"This is not blackmail, but a fact. If there is no development stop, we cannot carry out the Honda project. With these complex engines, further development is not possible without a development center like Sakura. And the costs would not be affordable either."

"We'd have to come to an agreement with Ferrari and Renault first. It all sounds simple, but it's not. You can imagine what would be going on if we beat the factory with a Ferrari engine. And there is also Renault a new self-confidence that they will tear everything down with their new engine and Mr. Alonso in 2022. The regulations require equal treatment, but there are ways to create differences. If we don't agree, the exit is also an option. We only showed the reality, "explains Marko.

The whole interview on AMuS (German).

[bigblue]

Arghh. This season has been a bit disappointing. RBR and Honda were more competitive last year, Merc built two monsters this year (car and engine), RBR have had car-related issues, and the Honda's been OK but not sparkled, seems even Renault have found something. Quite odd given the pre-season optimism, including RBR being excited by the Honda off-season progress.

[PlatinumZealot]

The engine is pretty close. Notice there was no bitching about the engine from Christian and Marko this year? Lol.

[bigblue]

I thought there was just a little lately, about "losing time on the straights".

[Lock2nl]

So which tenure at RBR Is Better Albon or Gasley at this point? by how much?

Does anyone think that if RBR had left Gasley at RBR he'd be driving like he is at AT at RBR?

He'd be doing a bit better than last year, but I don't think he'd be matching Verstappen. It takes a while to re-wire your brain when you've been conditioned to drive a certain way all your life.

Honda and RedBull have data that indicates when Albon is confident in the car that he can match Verstappen closely. It seems they think Albon is a driver with a driving style closer to Verstappen and that Gasly wasn't as close in the same machinery. Albon is in a confidence slump and with tracks he's relatively new to and tires that don't give him the grip he needs suffers quite a bit. Imola will probably be a tough race as would the Turkish GP since he's probably not as experienced on those tracks either. A track like Silverstone or Suzuka would be a different story.

He comes close in the fast corners. Those were the words of Helmut himself. i would not call that "mach".

[Lock2nl]

The AT has less bargeboard aero, and this shifts the car's aero center of pressure(COP) more rearward, improving balance vs the RB1x. The RB uses an outside loaded FW, and a lot of bargeboard aero, this shifts the aero COP forward some, and this COP shift is magnified if the diffuser or rear wing stall in any capacity. The issue is lessened to an extent with a full fuel tank because it shifts weight balance towards the rear.

I cannot say I'm an expert in these things. So consider it as just a suggestion.
The shift forward of the COP is the result of nothing else but a poor downforce performance of the rear end mechanical and aero). This leads to the problem that they cannot drive the optimal lines in every corner, particularly under acceleration at a certain corner tightness.
Max tries to drive around this issue by going into the corners more deeply but eventually breaking harder. This way, he takes a slightly wider line if the track allows him to do so. But the car then needs a sharper turn in. Like a V-shaped line compared to the often U shaped lines the mercedes drvers use.
This type of cornering meets the sensitivity of the high raked cars. it easily causes 'oversteer' like spins. We have seen these spins several times, starting at the Red Bull Ring. As Max repeatedly said the RBR16 is not so good in windy conditions. This makes it even worse for the drivers.

Interestingly, the more recent top ranked karting aces like Max and Charles seem to handle this type of driving much better than the older ones. Like Vettel, who prefers a COP closer to the rear. And I think this is also the type of car Mercedes builds for Lewis. No nervousness, stable at the end and with lots of in corner traction to use the power of the merc engine as soon as possible. Sooner than Max.

[Big Tea]

The AT has less bargeboard aero, and this shifts the car's aero center of pressure(COP) more rearward, improving balance vs the RB1x. The RB uses an outside loaded FW, and a lot of bargeboard aero, this shifts the aero COP forward some, and this COP shift is magnified if the diffuser or rear wing stall in any capacity. The issue is lessened to an extent with a full fuel tank because it shifts weight balance towards the rear.

I cannot say I'm an expert in these things. So consider it as just a suggestion.
The shift forward of the COP is the result of nothing else but a poor downforce performance of the rear end mechanical and aero). This leads to the problem that they cannot drive the optimal lines in every corner, particularly under acceleration at a certain corner tightness.
Max tries to drive around this issue by going into the corners more deeply but eventually breaking harder. This way, he takes a slightly wider line if the track allows him to do so. But the car then needs a sharper turn in. Like a V-shaped line compared to the often U shaped lines the mercedes drvers use.
This type of cornering meets the sensitivity of the high raked cars. it easily causes 'oversteer' like spins. We have seen these spins several times, starting at the Red Bull Ring. As Max repeatedly said the RBR16 is not so good in windy conditions. This makes it even worse for the drivers.

Interestingly, the more recent top ranked karting aces like Max and Charles seem to handle this type of driving much better than the older ones. Like Vettel, who prefers a COP closer to the rear. And I think this is also the type of car Mercedes builds for Lewis. No nervousness, stable at the end and with lots of in corner traction to use the power of the merc engine as soon as possible. Sooner than Max.

That makes sense to me (but I cannot say I'm an expert in these things, I can say I am not though)
If the car is not going directly forward, the 'air' changes direction, and (something I have often wondered) would flow most under the highest part of the car, ie the back as it is wedge shaped.

However, I really cannot imagine that the way I see it is the same as the way Newey sees it.

[godlameroso]

Well then the RB16 should fly around Imola as there isn't very much wind in the forecast.





I did a virtual race, 2 stops, starting on what would essentially be the hard tire for this event, then using the medium and soft. I'm not the fastest guy out there, but I'm usually thereabouts to the real pace. I think they can do it with one stop, as the game has more tire wear than real life.

Curiously FWIW the game predicted the soft tire would be essentially a bad tire at Portimao, and the medium would be a great race tire. Although the tires lasted a bit longer in real life than in the game, I couldn't get more than 13 laps from the softs.

[ispano6]

He'd be doing a bit better than last year, but I don't think he'd be matching Verstappen. It takes a while to re-wire your brain when you've been conditioned to drive a certain way all your life.

Honda and RedBull have data that indicates when Albon is confident in the car that he can match Verstappen closely. It seems they think Albon is a driver with a driving style closer to Verstappen and that Gasly wasn't as close in the same machinery. Albon is in a confidence slump and with tracks he's relatively new to and tires that don't give him the grip he needs suffers quite a bit. Imola will probably be a tough race as would the Turkish GP since he's probably not as experienced on those tracks either. A track like Silverstone or Suzuka would be a different story.

He comes close in the fast corners. Those were the words of Helmut himself. i would not call that "mach".

Yamamoto, Tanabe, and Asaki have said in telemetry data there are sections that Alex matches or is even faster than Max. In any case, I said "match Verstappen closely". BTW, recall Suzuka 2019 Q3 - Both Max and Alex's laptime was an identical 1:27.851. That is an exact match. I was there.

[Lock2nl]

Honda and RedBull have data that indicates when Albon is confident in the car that he can match Verstappen closely. It seems they think Albon is a driver with a driving style closer to Verstappen and that Gasly wasn't as close in the same machinery. Albon is in a confidence slump and with tracks he's relatively new to and tires that don't give him the grip he needs suffers quite a bit. Imola will probably be a tough race as would the Turkish GP since he's probably not as experienced on those tracks either. A track like Silverstone or Suzuka would be a different story.

He comes close in the fast corners. Those were the words of Helmut himself. i would not call that "mach".

Yamamoto, Tanabe, and Asaki have said in telemetry data there are sections that Alex matches or is even faster than Max. In any case, I said "match Verstappen closely". BTW, recall Suzuka 2019 Q3 - Both Max and Alex's laptime was an identical 1:27.851. That is an exact match. I was there.

Oops. I see that I wrote "mach".... that's too much for max as well

For sure, more has been said about it. What I do not like about sections is the fact that they depend on car setup and the tactics how to drive a good lap. For instance, if a soft is going up in smoke within one lap, where do you smoke them? That could cause section differences.
But it is interesting you mention Suzuka 2019. That day, they drove with extra wing to generate more downforce. Too much according to Max. He commented the setup was not aggresive enough.

[Wouter]

Speaking to Gazzetta dello Sport, he declared: "We are firmly against freezing power units as it is against the spirit of F1.

"I think it is important to emphasise that the current rules already provide for freezing in 2023. Plus, F1 has ambitious goals in terms of sustainability.

"Already from 2022, the regulations provide for the introduction of a fuel with a 10 percent ethanol content, but the FIA wants to reach 100 per cent as soon as possible: ideally the following year.

"This inevitably involves the development of some engine components. It is a very complicated subject, and we are actively talking about it with all the parties involved."