[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[NL_Fer]

“We use the parts with a small margin on them aswell”.

What does that mean? Not new spark plugs every weekend, day, session?

If they can last 350km, they use them for 300km.

[Sieper]

Ah, like so. Thanks!

[godlameroso]

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/641490/2

Translated from a German site:

In Q2 of qualifying, Verstappen came in after his first fast lap. The Honda engine struggled and he wanted the problem solved before going for his second fast lap. Ultimately, it was a faulty spark plug, part of the engine's ignition system.

"It was impossible to predict when that problem would occur," says Tanabe when asked about the RB16's sputtering engine. 'Our durability tests show how long each part can last. We use the parts with a small margin on them as well. '

That is why the defect came as a surprise to Tanabe: "In principle, the spark plug should have lasted." Again, Honda is struggling with motor problems at a Red Bull that occur unpredictably: "This was also an incidental problem."

Can spark plugs not be damaged by detonation? They can in a BSA.

If a spark plug backs out because it was not torqued down properly, it will absolutely cause a misfire, as the compression leaves through the backing out spark plug. This can increase the likelyhood of pre-ignition which will then damage the spark plug. It can be much worse, escaping exhaust gases can destroy the coil pack, and the pre-ignition can destroy the cylinder, or engine parts like valves.

Honda had to revise the tightening torque of their spark plugs because they were backing out and taking out engines from 17NM to 24, but most knowledgeable wrenches go 24ft/lbs(32NM) experience has shown this spec is safe.

[Big Tea]

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/641490/2

Translated from a German site:

In Q2 of qualifying, Verstappen came in after his first fast lap. The Honda engine struggled and he wanted the problem solved before going for his second fast lap. Ultimately, it was a faulty spark plug, part of the engine's ignition system.

"It was impossible to predict when that problem would occur," says Tanabe when asked about the RB16's sputtering engine. 'Our durability tests show how long each part can last. We use the parts with a small margin on them as well. '

That is why the defect came as a surprise to Tanabe: "In principle, the spark plug should have lasted." Again, Honda is struggling with motor problems at a Red Bull that occur unpredictably: "This was also an incidental problem."

Can spark plugs not be damaged by detonation? They can in a BSA.

If a spark plug backs out because it was not torqued down properly, it will absolutely cause a misfire, as the compression leaves through the backing out spark plug. This can increase the likelyhood of pre-ignition which will then damage the spark plug. It can be much worse, escaping exhaust gases can destroy the coil pack, and the pre-ignition can destroy the cylinder, or engine parts like valves.

Honda had to revise the tightening torque of their spark plugs because they were backing out and taking out engines from 17NM to 24, but most knowledgeable wrenches go 24ft/lbs(32NM) experience has shown this spec is safe.

I had a 500cc single (cast iron barrel, 11:1 compression) from the days before 'auto advance' so it was easy to set it to over advance, but it did not damage the engine if it was not too long, but I (think) I recall 2 occasions where after messing about advancing the spark I had a damaged plug. It used good extractor exhausts which would not have helped either.

I know plugs in F1 are far superior to those I used, but they are also running close to the edge in normal times.
It is the poppoppp sound from the Honda that put me in mind of it

[godlameroso]

I wonder if they use ruthenium plugs, those have even thinner electrodes than iridium plugs. They're not allowed to use any fancy type of spark plug, although I don't know if the plug goes into the pre-chamber, or if it's outside. As that would certainly affect the design of the plug. High boost turbo engines typically run coldish plugs with tiny gaps.

[godlameroso]

Can spark plugs not be damaged by detonation? They can in a BSA.

If a spark plug backs out because it was not torqued down properly, it will absolutely cause a misfire, as the compression leaves through the backing out spark plug. This can increase the likelyhood of pre-ignition which will then damage the spark plug. It can be much worse, escaping exhaust gases can destroy the coil pack, and the pre-ignition can destroy the cylinder, or engine parts like valves.

Honda had to revise the tightening torque of their spark plugs because they were backing out and taking out engines from 17NM to 24, but most knowledgeable wrenches go 24ft/lbs(32NM) experience has shown this spec is safe.

I had a 500cc single (cast iron barrel, 11:1 compression) from the days before 'auto advance' so it was easy to set it to over advance, but it did not damage the engine if it was not too long, but I (think) I recall 2 occasions where after messing about advancing the spark I had a damaged plug. It used good extractor exhausts which would not have helped either.

I know plugs in F1 are far superior to those I used, but they are also running close to the edge in normal times.
It is the poppoppp sound from the Honda that put me in mind of it

Do you think that was from pre-ignition detonation?

One benefit of the F1 power unit is how fast the fuel burns. The faster you burn the fuel the harder it is for it to detonate. Once you react all the products that can cause the detonation, then you have a statistically lower chance to cause one. So to tune closer to the edge, you do everything you can to burn the fuel as fast as possible after the spark. Better fuel has higher octane, so that lets you tune closer to the edge. Better lubricants reduce friction and heat, lets you run closer to the edge. New material plating gives you a better seal with the rings, again tune closer to the edge.

So you find all these little things that let you open the tuning window more and more. Imagine how many combustion chambers, how many fuels, how many intakes and headers, and turbos you have to design to get everything working perfectly. How many tweaks to the electronics you have to make, and redesign so they can exploit what you're trying to do.

Just thinking about all the man hours and manufacturing it takes to do all that. The FIA does nothing to reign in spending, and it's hampering competition because it isn't allowing in season updates. The same engine with 1 design update is supposed to reign in spending, but how, when it's not stopping the development process which is what costs the big money. That's still going on ahead full steam in the background, if the FIA were serious about costs it would limit what the OEMs can spend money on.

It's crazy to think that the 2 OEMs dragging their feet are doing so because they started with the wrong layout and took too long to change it.

[Wouter]

One of the three candidates for the RBR seat next to Max next season
is already testing a Honda machine.
Thanks to @Jarno, who posted this.

[etusch]

[Big Tea]

If a spark plug backs out because it was not torqued down properly, it will absolutely cause a misfire, as the compression leaves through the backing out spark plug. This can increase the likelyhood of pre-ignition which will then damage the spark plug. It can be much worse, escaping exhaust gases can destroy the coil pack, and the pre-ignition can destroy the cylinder, or engine parts like valves.

Honda had to revise the tightening torque of their spark plugs because they were backing out and taking out engines from 17NM to 24, but most knowledgeable wrenches go 24ft/lbs(32NM) experience has shown this spec is safe.

I had a 500cc single (cast iron barrel, 11:1 compression) from the days before 'auto advance' so it was easy to set it to over advance, but it did not damage the engine if it was not too long, but I (think) I recall 2 occasions where after messing about advancing the spark I had a damaged plug. It used good extractor exhausts which would not have helped either.

I know plugs in F1 are far superior to those I used, but they are also running close to the edge in normal times.
It is the poppoppp sound from the Honda that put me in mind of it

Do you think that was from pre-ignition detonation?

My theory, which was probably not worth much, was that as there was a cavity and a 'narrow' protrusion, it was the actual electrode of the plug getting hot enough to pre ignite when it was compressed. The horizontal electrode was always damaged, pitted and burned. As I say, miles away from modern F1 though, and usually 2-3 star fuel

[Wouter]

Already spotted in Istanbul!

[godlameroso]

Probably 3d scanning equipment used to get their sim updated with the latest version of the track?

I wonder what they use to get a reading on asphalt grip?

If it were me I'd use a torque sensor style strain gauge to build my model, and I'd reference it against known tracks.

[diffuser]

If Honda leaves RBR with a 2022 power unit, they'd be stuck with it and be able to see out 2022 but they'd be behind for 2023, and they would likely fall behind Renault forcing them to take that power unit.

Depends. The biggest thing for 2022 and 2023 is the E-fuel. Honda could work ahead of schedule (in 2021) because they have a new version 3 that already has been developed even further for 2021. If they can develop the 2022 engine in 2021 as planned (what would normally happen if Honda would have stayed) to support the first stage of e-fuels, and assist RB to support the full change to e-fuels for 2023 and beyond, RBR may be in the fight afterall. RBR could use Tsunoda to convince Honda to stick to some kind of support. More support, more Tsunoda... It ain't over yet.

There is a cap on dyno time in regs for this year and next.

[godlameroso]

I thought the cap only limited how many dynos you can have running in parallel. Which is 9, that means you can run 9 different engine configurations on the dyno?

[lio007]

I thought the cap only limited how many dynos you can have running in parallel. Which is 9, that means you can run 9 different engine configurations on the dyno?

That's it:




source: https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-full ... facturers/

[godlameroso]

That's still a huge expense, considering a GP is ~1.5 hours. That's a lot of simulated GPs even if you divide by 9.