[ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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e30ernest
e30ernest
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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El Scorchio wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 11:41
e30ernest wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 04:15
I haven't been paying attention to the lap time differences lately, but I think they aren't that far off from each other (Vet and Lec)? Things might just look worse than it is due to how tightly packed the midfield is. A few tenths or even a few hundredths can see you slip down a few places easily.
It would be really interesting to see the average time gap in qualifying this season actually. In my head, it's something crazy like 0.5 seconds but that could just be my brain remembering a few big outliers and assuming it to be normal.
I need coffee, hopefully I didn't make stupid mistakes in this one (open in new tab to enlarge):

Image

I only took the times from the same qualifying session the lower driver finished at so that the times are comparable (since different qualifying rounds would be running different engine settings).

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El Scorchio
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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e30ernest wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 13:18
El Scorchio wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 11:41
e30ernest wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 04:15
I haven't been paying attention to the lap time differences lately, but I think they aren't that far off from each other (Vet and Lec)? Things might just look worse than it is due to how tightly packed the midfield is. A few tenths or even a few hundredths can see you slip down a few places easily.
It would be really interesting to see the average time gap in qualifying this season actually. In my head, it's something crazy like 0.5 seconds but that could just be my brain remembering a few big outliers and assuming it to be normal.
I need coffee, hopefully I didn't make stupid mistakes in this one (open in new tab to enlarge):

https://i.imgur.com/agDDaRL.jpg

I only took the times from the same qualifying session the lower driver finished at so that the times are comparable (since different qualifying rounds would be running different engine settings).
Wow- that's great. Thanks! I had a quick look at doing it but ultimately didn't (how lazy of me)
Interesting- so there are a few massive differences there which are probably the ones I'm remembering. The average is probably 'reasonable' but it was very close in the first three races and has decisively and clearly swung Leclerc's way from GB onward. In the last five races he's only got within half a second once! Was that about the time it came out that Vettel was leaving, or was that sooner?

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 01:14
What happened to Vettel everyone asks I see! Well let's try to explain here!

Vettel is this kind of driver who is exceptionally fast under certain conditions! These conditions are:
1. A car with a really stable rear end
2. A team that fully supports him

Right now he has none of these two! The Ferrari is all over the place and we all saw how the relationship between the team and him ended so badly! Moreover there is one more thing compounding Vettel's problems....and that's the midfield battle which is so tight with really good drivers around him (Ricciardo, Sainz, Norris, Leclerc,...)!

Even in his Red Bull years Vettel wasn't the best overtaker or fighter when it came to battling other drivers on track! Remember the start of 2012 and how he was nowhere and then by the end of 2012 he was untouchable when the car got sorted out! Same as 2020 happened in 2014 when he got absolutely beaten by Danny in a car that wasn't as bad as 2020's Ferrari!

I never thought Vettel was one of the greatest...even when he was winning 9 races in a row! I always thought he had way too much luck with him back then (i.e. Brazil 2012) and a teammate not strong enough (Webber)...and that his statistics just didn't show the true picture! And people were exaggerating his talent (Sir Jackie saying how legendary Vettel was and how Lewis was a step below him...what about now Jackie?? :lol: :lol: )

I always thought Hamilton and Alonso were better than him just because they could drive the wheels off of anything they were given! Leclerc and Verstappen today can also do that it seems!

So:
-Did Vettel forget how to drive?
-Is his car different to Leclerc's?

The answer is: No! The circumstances just don't help him right now!
Is he a bad driver? No he isn't! He is a great one! But things aren't that simple in F1.
Yip, above all Seb needs to be loved and cossetted as he was at Red Bull when he was wining.
I think he will have good support at RP/AM as Otmar is not the sort to pass blame on to the driver even if it his fault.
I see it as the perfect place for him (there or mclaren) but I think the first few months will make or brake him.

He needs to stop trying to prove himself every second of every race and keep a few % in hand for a couple of races.
He also needs to realise they would prefer to see him come home in the points than in the wall
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

e30ernest
e30ernest
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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El Scorchio wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 13:30
e30ernest wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 13:18
El Scorchio wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 11:41


It would be really interesting to see the average time gap in qualifying this season actually. In my head, it's something crazy like 0.5 seconds but that could just be my brain remembering a few big outliers and assuming it to be normal.
I need coffee, hopefully I didn't make stupid mistakes in this one (open in new tab to enlarge):

https://i.imgur.com/agDDaRL.jpg

I only took the times from the same qualifying session the lower driver finished at so that the times are comparable (since different qualifying rounds would be running different engine settings).
Wow- that's great. Thanks! I had a quick look at doing it but ultimately didn't (how lazy of me)
Interesting- so there are a few massive differences there which are probably the ones I'm remembering. The average is probably 'reasonable' but it was very close in the first three races and has decisively and clearly swung Leclerc's way from GB onward. In the last five races he's only got within half a second once! Was that about the time it came out that Vettel was leaving, or was that sooner?
My memory is fuzzy, but I think it was announced around May, before the season finally started. So he knew from the start that he'd need to look for another job next year.

cheeRS
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Zynerji wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 01:34
Let's see what Seb does in a low-rake Pink Mercedes next year. Then we will see what's what.
Unfortunately that's what it's going to have to come down to. With all due respect, people are not thinking logically on this.

Why is it assumed here that Vettel is "just lucky" and is an average driver because he had a good car from 2009-2013? The same is said about LH, that he's only winning because of the car. If that's the case, then why isn't Mark Webber a 4x WDC? Why isn't Rosberg a 3x WDC and Bottas a 3x WDC and Alonso a 3x WDC? Those guys all had the WDC winning car, but lost. Vettel got into F1 at a young age because of his incredible skill. He handed TR their first win as a true rookie. He helped Ferrari get back to winning during his first year with them.

I'm not implying that all teams do this, but with Ferrari, when you're out, YOU ARE OUT. It's a cultural thing. Listen to all the past drivers (F1 Beyond the Grid Podcast) for Ferrari and you'll get a sense of it. YES, Ferrari is really that petty; they will undermine a driver that is badmouthing Ferrari, which I will agree... Vettel is doing that.

From the beginning of this season, Ferrari said "it didn't work out, we had different goals and so us and Vettel decided to go our seperate ways". Next, Vettel comes out and said "they never talked to me, they just let me go, end of story." I think that says enough. Why would Ferrari just tell it how it is? Easy, they're protecting their name. If they came out and said "we are giving Vettel the abosolute minimum support this year and his car won't be at the same level as Leclerc's", people would go nuts. So they won't say it. And people believe the rhetoric because "why would Ferrari lie?" Normally, this would suffice. But Vettel is outspoken. He admits that, perhaps, he doesn't have the same confidence, but he himself said you'd have to be an idiot to not see what is going on. Read his interview after Portimao.
Human history is the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy.

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Scorpaguy
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Regardless of any admittances, Big Red is political first and results second. The fact that Bino is TP instead of Arri pretty much speaks to that point. Vet's domination in the RB was not as complete as is Ham's now...but it was pretty abject and in a different era to boot. However, reality will soon show us that Vet's abilities are a moot point...so good is the Ham skill/Merc package that he will likely have no chance at cracking the top 6 in the WDC. If Ren/Alp continues, he may be looking at 8th or 9th.

Hammerfist
Hammerfist
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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cheeRS wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 19:00
Zynerji wrote:
27 Oct 2020, 01:34
Let's see what Seb does in a low-rake Pink Mercedes next year. Then we will see what's what.
Unfortunately that's what it's going to have to come down to. With all due respect, people are not thinking logically on this.

Why is it assumed here that Vettel is "just lucky" and is an average driver because he had a good car from 2009-2013? The same is said about LH, that he's only winning because of the car. If that's the case, then why isn't Mark Webber a 4x WDC? Why isn't Rosberg a 3x WDC and Bottas a 3x WDC and Alonso a 3x WDC? Those guys all had the WDC winning car, but lost. Vettel got into F1 at a young age because of his incredible skill. He handed TR their first win as a true rookie. He helped Ferrari get back to winning during his first year with them.

I'm not implying that all teams do this, but with Ferrari, when you're out, YOU ARE OUT. It's a cultural thing. Listen to all the past drivers (F1 Beyond the Grid Podcast) for Ferrari and you'll get a sense of it. YES, Ferrari is really that petty; they will undermine a driver that is badmouthing Ferrari, which I will agree... Vettel is doing that.

From the beginning of this season, Ferrari said "it didn't work out, we had different goals and so us and Vettel decided to go our seperate ways". Next, Vettel comes out and said "they never talked to me, they just let me go, end of story." I think that says enough. Why would Ferrari just tell it how it is? Easy, they're protecting their name. If they came out and said "we are giving Vettel the abosolute minimum support this year and his car won't be at the same level as Leclerc's", people would go nuts. So they won't say it. And people believe the rhetoric because "why would Ferrari lie?" Normally, this would suffice. But Vettel is outspoken. He admits that, perhaps, he doesn't have the same confidence, but he himself said you'd have to be an idiot to not see what is going on. Read his interview after Portimao.
I agree, the way he came out and basically said that Ferrari was lying about the reason of his departure from the team did not go well with Ferrari Management. It couldn't have.

garychopper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Perhaps how Seb's exit was handled by Ferrari could have been better. They could have told him in clear terms that his services are no longer needed and told press the same thing. But, more often than not, Ferrari screws up especially when it comes to how they communicate to the press about renewals of their top drivers. It is partly because I guess they themselves are apologetic about firing him, and want to save face. The English teams have no such qualms, look at how Red bull treat their drivers. Ferrari needs to understand that its just business and firing is part of the game especially when things are not working between them.
Seb on the other hand, is a prima donna..IMO he needs to man up a little bit. If he expects to be cuddled, pooched and loved at all times and only then he can perform then Ferrari was never the right team for him. Driving for Ferrari is about handling pressure. The driver needs to be the bond that glues the team together in the tough moments by over delivering than what the team expects. That is what Charles is doing now, that is what Michael did so well and Alonso did on the track with that Ferrari.
Seb is perhaps not in his zone, but that is not an excuse for what is doing on the track. Alonso's exit from Ferrari was not graceful either, but you couldn't fault him for how he performed even in his last races.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication- Leonardo da vinci

hape
hape
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Interesting thoughts on Leclerc / Vettel performance difference. It does make sense and the important note is, Ferrari isn’t scr*wing Vettel.
Hopefully I’m allowed to paste the link from Motorsport website.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... n=widget-6

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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hape wrote:
28 Oct 2020, 22:12
Interesting thoughts on Leclerc / Vettel performance difference. It does make sense and the important note is, Ferrari isn’t scr*wing Vettel.
Hopefully I’m allowed to paste the link from Motorsport website.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... n=widget-6
Is it a matter of him not getting the same car, or of actually getting the same car, and its not how how likes it?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

ncx
ncx
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Video of Binotto's interview to Sky Italia, with partial transcript, including answers on "the agreement". (All in Italian for the moment.)

https://sport.sky.it/formula-1/2020/10/ ... port-video
‐‐---------------------------------
EDIT ADD
Translation of the part about the secret agreement (from the video):

Had FIA ever found you in breach of regulations?

The answer is obvious and everyone knows it and it's "no". Had we been in breach, we would have been disqualified. I'll tell you more: the FIA carried out checks on us at every single GP thoroughly and never found any breach. No competitor ever protested.
[...]
The agreement started solely from the FIA will to keep investigating, in the obligations of their role. Such investigations would have taken a large amount of energy from them and from us. When we are in full winter, we are also working on the development of the cars for the following years. We then reached a simple agreement: let's focus on the future, let's also help each other in understanding the grey areas and ambiguities of the regulations, where clarifications are needed... and clarifications were made. It's normal that an agreement be secret: Will we show our engine to everybody? Will we open and show our designs? I think nobody ever did that in F1 and it's not the time to begin.

Why did you feel obliged not to stay in a grey area?

In the grey area, we stayed all season long, until winter directives were written, also with our help, that prevent the possibility to do certain things with the PU. This had consequences on us but also on others, surely us more than others as the current season demonstrates.
--------------‐----------------------------

(Sorry guys, haven't got time to translate it now.)

Ho letto in un'intervista che da bambino giocavi con la macchinina di Niki Lauda. Io avevo quella di Jody Scheckter, ultimo pilota della Ferrari a vincere il titolo prima di un digiuno di 21 anni. Non si arriverà a tanto prima di tornare a vincere, vero?

"Non passeranno 21 anni, ne sono covinto. Ho vissuto in prima persona quella fase di ricostruzione, con la vittoria del campionato costruttori prima e del piloti poi. Ora ne sono passati tanti, fin troppi. Tolto il 2020, sono state stagioni in cui lottavamo per la vittoria e ci siamo giocati un paio di volte il titolo".

Anche in quell'epoca c'era una rivoluzione tecnica in corso e si visse una stagione difficile. Si può paragonare?

"Ci sono tante stagioni senza vittorie, dal 1990 al 1994 per esempio. Questa è una stagione difficile e particolare, sia per le difficoltà che abbiamo che per il contesto particolare del Covid. Non abbiamo potuto sviluppare e modificare, c'è un 2022 che arriva e in cui dobbiamo mettere tante energie. E' una stagione che farà eccezione". 

C'è stato anche un accordo con la Federazione, che non è mai stato reso noto: siete mai stati trovati irregolari?

"Ovviamente no, altrimenti saremmo stati squalificati. La Federazione ha fatto accertamenti ogni singola gara, non trovando mai nulla di irregolare. Nessun avversario ha mai fatto proteste. Siamo arrivati a un accordo in cui sono stati chiariti dei punti regolamentari che erano zona grigia. E' normale che l'accordo sia segreto, non possiamo certo svelare i nostri progetti".

Perchè vi siete sentiti in dovere di non restare in una zona grigia? Questo vi ha penalizzato...

"Ci siamo stati per tutta la stagione, fino a quando le direttive durante l'inverno hanno impedito di fare certe cose sulle Power Unit. Hanno avuto implicazioni su di noi più di tutti, ma anche sugli altri". 

Voglio farti arrabbiare: come si fa ad avere una stagione così difficile?

"Mi ero già arrabbiato nelle domande precedenti... Non penso che sbattere i pugni sia la scelta giusta. Abbiamo sbagliato il progetto, cercando una strada di sviluppo errata. Il Covid ci ha congelato e ci ha penalizzato".

Ti fanno arrabbiare le imitazioni di Crozza?

"Quando l'ho visto per la prima volta mi sono messo a ridere e lo faccio ancora ogni volta che lo vedo. Mi crea simpatia, mi diverte. Tutto sommato essere imitati da Crozza è divertente, in questa stagione ci sta, sdrammatizza anche la situazione, va bene così".

Avete capito, come dice Crozza?

"Gli aggiornamenti che abbiamo portato recentemente sono importanti, per l'anno prossimo abbiamo obiettivi sfidanti. C'è una squadra responsabile che vuole riscattarsi. Avremo un motore nuovo che gira bene a banco, anche se non possiamo aspettarci miracoli. Sono certo che questa squadra è viva e faremo un passo avanti"

Che Formula 1 è adesso, quella in cui non ti puoi 'allenare'?

"Ci sono sempre stati domini, poi sappiamo che se domina la Ferrari è più entusiasmante. E' giunto il momento di cambiare i regolamenti, dal 2022 partiremo tutti uguali. Ci potremo lavorare tutti da gennaio 2021, sarà un foglio bianco che rimescolerà le carte. Speriamo di avere un ciclo vincente Ferrari"

Il 2022 dà di nuovo l'opportunità a qualcuno di indovinare una strada tale da essere così superiore alla ripartenza?

"Il regolamento per come è stato scritto è molto restrittivo, quindi ci sono poche opportunità di inventarsi qualcosa di strano. Le premesse sono quelle giuste: cercare di aumentare la spettacolarità, le vetture potranno perdere meno prestazione aerodinamica stando più vicine a quella davanti. La direzione è quella giusta".

Questa F1 non è troppo prigioniera degli ingegneri?

"Si è spesso discusso di questo, ma per esempio ridurre i sensori significa anche diminuire la sicurezza del mezzo. Stiamo lavorando per il giusto compromesso. Siamo un bello sport, ci sarà un bel cambio nel 2022. E' un dovere di tutti gli addetti ai lavori della F1".

Perchè vi odiate, sportivamente parlando, con Toto Wolff?

"Perchè è il capo del nostro principale rivale sportivo. Ma non parlerei di odio, bensì di rispetto. Non voglio battere lui, voglio riportare la Ferrari alla vittoria. La chiaccherata con Vettel e Mick ai box? Io queste cose non le faccio e mai le farò"

Realisticamente per il 2021 la Ferrari torna a lottare per il Mondiale?

"Realisticamente no, per il Mondiale penso onestamente di no. Deve tornare a lottare regolarmente per il podio, questo deve essere il nostro obiettivo".

C'è una frase di Enzo Ferrari che ricordi ogni giorno ai tuoi collaboratori?

"#EssereFerrari è un'identità. Enzo Ferrari è una presenza per i suoi valori, la derminazione ad arrivare alla vittoria. E' un contesto italiano, di provincia e questo è qualcosa di importante".

E' una Ferrari che non si ferma, che rappresenta l'orgoglio italiano

"E' una cosa che mi stimola. Una situazione come quella di quest'anno potrebbe far emergere tensioni interne, invece siamo tutti uniti, dai dirigenti in giù. E' un esempio per tutti: malgrado le situazioni difficili, sportive e non, ha solide basi".

Ferrari ha investito su due piloti giovani, al contrario di quanto fatto con Schumi

"Michael è stato il più grande, abbiamo imparato tanto da un leader come lui. Leclerc entusiasma il tifoso, ma anche noi internamente. Sarebbe piaciuto molto a Enzo Ferrari, guida spesso sopra il limite. Sainz è un leader, grande lavoratore che unisce il gruppo di lavoro. E' un pilota che cresce e ha mentalità: sono fortemente convinto di questa scelta, penso che loro saranno l'ultimo dei nostri problemi". 

Come terrete buoni Leclerc e Sainz a livello di prestazioni?

"Charles fa già parte della squadra. Sta crescendo come leadership, nelle difficoltà non è mai stato critico. Vuole aiutare, sta maturando. I team radio erano solo sfoghi. Verremo fuori da una stagione difficile, Sainz ha fatto la scelta giusta e ne è consapevole". 

Quanto è stato difficile telefonare a Vettel per spiegargli che era fuori dal progetto?

"Ero a casa e avevo fatto le prove sul come dirglielo. Di base vogliamo bene a Seb per quella che ci ha dato e come ci ha comportato. Dovevamo fare delle scelte in base al futuro, con ambizioni a medio-lungo termine. L'abbiamo affrontata in modo trasparente. Non ha riattaccato, ha capito perchè è una persona intelligente". 

Hamilton è mai venuto a Maranello a parlare di un futuro in Ferrari?

"E' un grande campione che merita ogni vittoria, ma sono legato ai record di Schumi. E' venuto qui a comprare le auto, perchè sono bellissime..."

Hai mai pensato: "Ma chi me lo ha fatto fare?"

"E' sempre stato il mio sogno lavorare in Ferrari, in qualunque ruolo. Sento la responsabilità, ad oggi sono qui contento di poter far parte di una squadra che è come una famiglia e di poter dare il mio contributo".

Qual è il compito più difficile?

"Quello di filtrare le cose che arrivano dall'esterno alla squadra. Giudizi e pressioni esterne sono a volte difficili da gestire. La famiglia mi aiuta a gestire queste pressioni, parlo poco del lavoro quando non è necessario".

Quest'anno è anche difficile criticare la Ferrari...

"E' giusto esprimere quello che sentite, ovvio che il peso della Ferrari è diverso anche sui processi. Noi dobbiamo spendere tanta energia anche per questo rispetto agli altri, ma noi siamo la Ferrari e lo sappiamo". 

La macchina con gli aggiornamenti sembra lavorare bene, in gara è più difficile: come mai?

"E' vero, abbiamo portato novità che stanno funzionando. La speranza è quella di fare quel piccolo passo in avanti che ci riporti almeno a dove eravamo a inizio anno".  

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Scorpaguy
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Bino

...so Bino is skipping the last 3 races to "...stay at the factory and oversee development of the 2021 car...". This all seems a bit strange (granted we are all living in a strange 2020-covid pseudo-reality). Does anyone but me think it strange for a TP to announce such a thing? Are Big Red politics afoot?

ryaan2904
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Scorpaguy wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 20:02
Bino

...so Bino is skipping the last 3 races to "...stay at the factory and oversee development of the 2021 car...". This all seems a bit strange (granted we are all living in a strange 2020-covid pseudo-reality). Does anyone but me think it strange for a TP to announce such a thing? Are Big Red politics afoot?
James Allison hasn't been in the paddock for the same reason since the last two races I think. Its painful for Ferrari since their TP and TD are one and the same. I dont get why he became TP when he already had so many responsibilities
CFD Eyes of Sauron

LM10
LM10
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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ryaan2904 wrote:
10 Nov 2020, 15:14
Scorpaguy wrote:
09 Nov 2020, 20:02
Bino

...so Bino is skipping the last 3 races to "...stay at the factory and oversee development of the 2021 car...". This all seems a bit strange (granted we are all living in a strange 2020-covid pseudo-reality). Does anyone but me think it strange for a TP to announce such a thing? Are Big Red politics afoot?
James Allison hasn't been in the paddock for the same reason since the last two races I think. Its painful for Ferrari since their TP and TD are one and the same. I dont get why he became TP when he already had so many responsibilities
The technical department of Ferrari has been restructured already months ago. Binotto is no longer the technical director.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

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Binotto has been their engine guy, it's like putting Andy Cowell in charge at Mercedes. Truthfully, this season was growing pains for Ferrari, just like Honda went through when it made a big switch in architecture. The Ferrari engine isn't just down because they can't "cheat" any more, but because they misjudged parts of their new concept. Unfortunately for them, they cannot make in season changes to the power unit, and so have to suffer with their current hardware until the end of the season. If they had been allowed to, Ferrari would easily be able to develop its way out of its current predicament, instead they must wait until next season to get to a more normal level.

Do you not find it curious that Ferrari spends all its tokens in the rear despite being the only team to retain the cape/J vane setup? Surely this is not an advantage, so why spend all of your resources and development potential in the rear of the car? Because that is where the engine goes. That is where they are furthest behind, so they needed to spend the tokens because the new engine is very different to the current one.

Next year they will still have their hybrid cape/J-vane setup with all the drawbacks and benefits that brings, but will have a new rear end to go with their new power unit. Therefore Ferrari will have a much better engine but still be constrained by their front end setup. It's not known how the floor changes will affect their setup, relative to the Mercedes/RB/Renault/McLaren style cape. Perhaps it will benefit Ferrari because they can make stronger bargeboard vortices that can somewhat compensate for what they lose on the floor.

The cape feeds more air to the diffuser directly at the expense of some airflow to the bargeboards, so perhaps the caped cars will suffer more as they'll have slightly weaker vortecies from the bargeboards than J-vane setup.

Perhaps Ferrari is well situated with their hybrid version, and is also why Mercedes is investing its tokens up front, not just for removal of DAS, but to possibly tweak their cape/bargeboard concept so that the airflow is more evenly distributed between diffuser and bargeboards.
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