Tilke is an artist...

[Belatti]

I remember the Burti crash at Blanchimont in his Prost, while fighting Irvines Jaguar. Also I remember Senna and Tamburello (which was its radii?) and the paved "safety" area that included a concrete wall. All this makes me think (again) about advantages and disadvantages between gravel, paved, sand (remember sand safety areas?) and probably (after reading some Ciro´s old posts where he defends paved areas) I think there is no magic formula: sometimes you need gravel, some times you dont.

I would use gravel in slow corners and chicanes so drivers pay the price of running wide and they stop this ridiculous thing of acelerating outside the track (hairpins like in Hockenheim kurve 6, La Source, Fuji, etc) But gravel in fast corners make me think a hard flip-over may occur if a car goes wide while sliding.
Although, paved safety areas doesnt stop cars by itself like gravel does (in case of brake failure), in paved areas you can brake by yourself (Schumacher, in Silverstone 99 could not).

And what about the curves that are considered as straights by many? They might be "taburellos" too, like the one before the hairpin in Canada, where Kubica had his accident, or right before the spoon in Suzuka, or China turn 5.

I agree on your thoughts about safety Ciro, but we all know 100% safety / 0% risk is imposible in a sport like this. How much risk is acceptable for you, for a driver, for a sponsor is the question. I work in a company who doesnt sponsor "risky" sports, even if our competitors does, the opposite would be working Red Bull (even drinking too much of that is a risk ). So, if you like motorsport you have to accept some risk, if not just play golf and remember to use a helmet, golf balls are dangerous if Happy Gilmore is arround

[Metar]

I think a main difference in gravel-vs-tarmac runoffs is the tyres. A saloon racer with thin tyres, especially the old historics on their skinny slicks, will "dig" into the gravel and stop quickly. A wide-tyred F1 car, however, pretty much "skates" over it.

Perhaps some sandpaper-style tarmac is needed? Better grip for improved stopping-power in emergencies, but to a level that also damages your tyres slightly. Perhaps even gradually: A small excursion won't hurt you since you'll stay on the smoother surface, but go 4m out of the course, and you'll reach the extra-grippy surface, causing the damage of, say, a lap or two of driving. On a really long "trip", it'll need a pitstop and new tyres, thus also providing the punishment that current runoffs don't offer - while also providing better stopping-power in emergencies.

Sum the time the drivers spend at 3Gs or more in the whole race and that will give you maybe 10 minutes (thats not 2 hours) and in different directions. So your "heavy earing" theory doesnt apply.

They may spend just ten seconds of 4 lateral gs (40m/s^2) a lap, say, at Istanbul's turn eight - but they also reach 4gs in almost every braking zone, every lap. Considering most tracks are around 60-70% full throttle, it's safe to assume 20% of the time is spent on the brakes?

[Miguel]

Hello Ciro,

Miguel, curves of that radius are taken at full throttle and full speed in most categories, not only in F1. You are entitled to think that protos are not that fast, but to my taste they are.

LeMans prototypes are indeed fast. They are usually less than 10s from F1 times. What I meant is that Porsche Supercup cars "aren't" fast. Yes, I'd be scared if I took corners at their speed, but F1 is in a totally different league. It's as if they used a different set of physics.

When I watch motorsports, I certainly don't do it to see people get killed. When I saw Kubica crash in Canada in 2007, I admit I was on the verge of crying. I was shocked. I don't watch it to see the accidents. But I don't watch it either to see them only turn left, or to take (again) a hairpin after a straight.

I want to see these cars tearing through Istambul Turn 8, I want to see them sweeping through the Nurburgring and Imola complexes in Magny Cours, I want to see them trailbraking looking for a late apex in off-cambered corners. I want to see Fernando driving like he's posessed by the devil, and I want to see Lewis exploring the limit of adhesion each time he brakes. I want to see Kimi pulling out bloody amazing laps and I want them all racing wheel to wheel, knife to knife, lap by lap.

I am sorry, but I find the endless succession of 90º curves of Singapore doesn't thrill me. I am not thrilled either by the "hairpin-straight-hairpin" concept of Bahrain, and I dislike the apparent "one lane only" nature of Valencia. And don't ask about the "Mickey Mouse" last sector of Fuji. I love Spa, and do not mind some off-track action (Lewis 2007 or Kimi 2008) in Pouhon. The soft flowing nature of the esses in Suzuka is top class, as is the Maggots-Beckets-Chapel complex in Silverstone. Bridge is cool too, but I 100% understand why MotoGP won't go through there.

So I'd love to think that there is a world were Tilke-safe circuits can have exhilarating corners without the need of parsecs of runoff areas, and thus have reasonable costs to be built.

Finally, let me ask a question. If we are all striving for more safety, why the hell is Bernie pushing for more street circuits? Why do we race near the buildings in Valencia, Monaco, Singapore and now Abu Dabi?

[WhiteBlue]

Miguel, Ciro has spelled that out. It is simply cost and the hope that this type of venues will give easy access to crowds that will help the promoter break even. Having a race in a world metopolitan area or at least at very popular tourist center will do that.

I very much support the safety approach of the FIA and tarmac safety areas are an important element. This is why I keep telling people who argue for ridiculous performance specs to think twice about piling on downforce and horse power.

On the other hand I feel that the rules have not kept track with the safety measures. The ethos of racing is keeping the car on the tack - because it used to be dangeous to go off. We should keep it that way although going off isn't so much dangerous any more in most places. So drivers who use the run offs unforced should be penalized and drivers who force others off to the run off should be penalized as much as they were when it was dangerous. There is a reason for having track limits and curbs and I don't like the way the stewards have allowed the drivers to drive each other off the track in the last 2 years. It makes no sense. In Spa it is particularly obvious ever since Alonso's openeing move in La Source 2007.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, I don't know how to thank you all for the fruitful comments in this thread.

Miguel, thanks, what a great post. As WB as said, I just mentioned the reasons Tilke might have and the costs it implies.

I don't like fast curves specially, I think that the character of a track depends on many things, but I love intermediate ones when I race. I don't like either the solution, rigged to a particular set of cars, under a particular set of regulations that has brought us the hairpins.

I prefer other kind of curves: with different radii, with continously variable radius, with slopes at the entrance and exit that make simulations difficult, with a mixture of vertical and horizontal curves, with bridges that allow you to cross the track itself and provide the same amount of turning in one direction as in the other.

I love variable sideslope across the width, with aggresive bankings, with special asphalts that provide you an extra-flat surface, with abbrasive surfaces in the safety zones, with continously reinforced slabs of concrete under the asphalt.

I like stands that allow spectators to watch the entire circuit, instead of a couple of curves, even dream of providing stands over the track and I would love to make a pitlane and garages that stand out, practically transparent, in such a way as to provide the people with the spectacle of mechanics and engineers working, instead of the hidden places I see today.

Heck, I even have though of stands buried or at a level that provide a different approach to watching races, perhaps behind banked curves (I don't know how the track surface could be made transparent, but hey, humankind will continue for a long time). Virtual reality on the stands? Where the computer screens of the future will take spectators? I don't know. At the same time I would like to see stands where people, instead of sitting on a bench could be laying on the grass, as God intended us to do when watching something.

I would like to see parking areas really far away from the track, tracks where only public transportation is allowed to reach the track, and not any kind of transportation: I dream of buses that educate people that love racing about how public transportation should be in their own cities.

I even would love to build coloured surfaces on the road, instead of the black ribbon we have today.

Over all, I would like to build a track right on a caribbean beach (instead of on a desert beach) a place of the world where I live and where there are no tracks worth mentioning (that I know).

That kind of circuits, if anyone is ever able to build them, will have their critics, the same way you and me can criticize Tilke's solutions. However, I inted to make works of art, earth and asphalt sculptures, paths that take your very soul somewhere else and that change somehow the way you see the world of racing, not just roads that go in circles.

So, yes, I also want to be an artist, like most architects and a few engineers; exactly like the racing engineers: we want to touch beauty. Who knows, maybe someday. I bet Tilke and his group feel the same.

[Giblet]

Kind of sounds like the movie Speed Racer, except not as lame.

Actually not lame at all.

I figure most of your ideas will eventually make it to racing, albeit through virtualization of the track to viewers who may or may not be at the track.

While I dont see transparent banking, there is no reason right now or in the near future all the cars that are running in the real world are also plotted in 3d space in real time.

We'll soon be participating in virtual races with the drivers. Our cars will have no effect on them, but we will have the chance to get schooled by the F1 crowd as if we were in our rookie season. Nascar is already developing this, or at least they were a year or tow ago.

[ISLAMATRON]

Over all, I would like to build a track right on a caribbean beach (instead of on a desert beach) a place of the world where I live and where there are no tracks worth mentioning (that I know).

I think there was an Imsa or something race in Dominican republic at a seaside airport cicuit, it was quite lovely. I was a kid so its been a while.

The Carribean is perfectly suited for rally racing(even tarmac), but I would rather the goverment spend the money on the people than build racetracks but I feel where you are coming from.

We used to have races by the bay here in Miami but a couple of knuckleheads messed that for everything... but those werent situated in as great a place as it could have been.

[Ciro Pabón]

The Carribean is perfectly suited for rally racing(even tarmac), but I would rather the goverment spend the money on the people than build racetracks but I feel where you are coming from.

I come from Spain.