Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Question is the bio fuel component ethanol or can it be a ethanol/methanol mix? What about butanol instead?

[SmallSoldier]

This might be irrelevant to the discussion, but at least in my car, going from E10 at the pump, to E75 (sold as E85, but measured to be E75) implies an increase in HP of a bit more than 25% (410 WHP @ E10, 540 WHP @ E75)... My fuel consumption does goes up dramatically though.

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It's because your car is not fuel mass flow limited and you can burn more to offset and even exceed the output on normal unleaded.

It also depends on what is the limiting factor on straight unleaded - whether that's air massflow or knock.

You are absolutely right... Wasn’t considering at all the limitations on mass flow... I know that in my car’s case it just allowed us to run more timing / boost while keeping knock in check, but the fueling requirements went up considerably to make it happen.

Thank you!


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[godlameroso]

https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/sites.coe ... g7bkhq.pdf

Interesting study of n-gasoline 10% butanol/ 90% gasoline mix, and butanol comparison. Seems there's more particulates, energy density is very similar and the 10% mix is almost indistinguishable from n-gasoline. It does alter physical properties of the fuel, it also changes the way the flame propagates from the droplets.

Even more interesting seems BP/Castrol invested in butanol production back in ~2014, will this help Renault?

[ryaan2904]

How will these new 'sustainable' fuels in 2021 and especially in 2023 affect those engines which use HCCI technology for combustion such as Mercedes and Honda? Will it increase/decrease efficiency? HCCI engines already are more susceptible to knock. Although I've read that ethanol reduces knock, how it'll affect HCCI engines is what I want to know.

[63l8qrrfy6]

No one uses HCCI

[godlameroso]

How will these new 'sustainable' fuels in 2021 and especially in 2023 affect those engines which use HCCI technology for combustion such as Mercedes and Honda? Will it increase/decrease efficiency? HCCI engines already are more susceptible to knock. Although I've read that ethanol reduces knock, how it'll affect HCCI engines is what I want to know.

Because HCCI is prone to knock it only works at very low loads, highway cruising. It's not ideal for a race engine that has the loud pedal pinned to the floor.

[ryaan2904]

Wait, weren't Mercedes and Honda using HCCI and Ferrari using mahle TJI?? Or do all of them use TJI? I'm confused now

[Roostfactor]

AFAIK they all use their own varient of TJI. TJI is a Mahle specific system. Others are similar in principal (from what I understand) but not the same.

[ryaan2904]

AFAIK they all use their own varient of TJI. TJI is a Mahle specific system. Others are similar in principal (from what I understand) but not the same.

Cool. Thanks for clearing this up. I've had this misunderstanding since so long, feels like last 3 yrs were a lie

[etusch]

what are the difference between hcci and prechamber ignition? If I am not wrong hcci has 2 injector one for cylinder (port injection) and other one is for prechamber.
in formula 1 one injector must feed both chambers and it is direct injection.

[godlameroso]

HCCI is "dieseling" TJI still involves spark.

I remember someone talking about the smell of the exhaust on these cars. Someone mentioned a "woody" smell, a sort of Camphor?

TBA aka Tert aka tert-butyl alchohol is an octane booster that has those properties when combusted. Butanol has a rotten banana smell.

[GhostF1]

HCCI is "dieseling" TJI still involves spark.

I remember someone talking about the smell of the exhaust on these cars. Someone mentioned a "woody" smell, a sort of Camphor?

TBA aka Tert aka tert-butyl alchohol is an octane booster that has those properties when combusted. Butanol has a rotten banana smell.

Horner said the fuel Ferrari used made the exhaust smell like grapefruit juice...

Closest thing I can recall regarding exhaust smell.

[Tommy Cookers]

....TBA aka Tert aka tert-butyl alchohol is an octane booster that has those properties when combusted. Butanol has a rotten banana smell.

Horner said the fuel Ferrari used made the exhaust smell like grapefruit juice...

furans have a powerful grapefruit aroma - at levels over a few parts per billion
(note to self - mercaptans smell foul not citrus)


furans as 'advanced/2nd generation biofuel ? .....(have 25% more specific energy than butanol and 55% more than ethanol)

eg Avantium's 'Furanics' fuel is ingredient for blending into biodiesel (could it work in an SACI F1 engine ??)

but ....'electrolytic hydrogenation of furfural helps product selectivity' .....
and eg 'Drels-Alder cycloaddition of furanes and ethylene can produce toluenes and/or benzene'
(for conventional F1 engines - and smelling of grapefruit presumably)

remember - FIA biofuel can be a fuel made from a bio feedstock (with 'commercial intent' of course)

[Tommy Cookers]

double posted (sort of)

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[godlameroso]

Goes to show what they mean when they talk about tailoring the fuel for the power unit. I suppose the goal is to have the energy of n-gasoline with the anti-knock properties they're looking for. The 5% bio-component and soon to be 10% opens the door for some development in octane boosters. Obviously you can't make an alcohol have more energy than gasoline, but you can get it close and you can enhance the properties of the gasoline.