[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Sieper]

Or any battle. Now RBR can just about sniff at heels. Last year they were closer in the closing stages. Allthough perhaps the tracks suited them better and these have all been Corona canceled. Max was guardedly positive for coming weekend, the track should be ok for the currents car strengths. Let’s see. And then indeed how that develops over the winter.

I am as always between hope and fear. Merc has not made many updates last months. Plus the rumoured air intake update. If they make 2 big steps RBR needs 3 big ones. Plus Ferrari was very optimistic about their engine. A year in the doghouse and now reckoning is over?

[godlameroso]

We don't know how much this team can improve the chassis, we don't know how much Honda can improve. All it takes is for RB's upgrades to pan out, or for Mercedes to make a misstep somewhere for that .5 gap to evaporate, at least on certain tracks.

That's what I said. Just the odds are against everyone else for said reasons. You can add to that, Merc probably have a 3 month head start.

I guess you can say Merc have executed 8 years in a row. They have to screw up some time.

They have screwed up, enough to let Ferrari catch them, 2018 could have gone either way until Ferrari imploded.

Mercedes also has to change more on their chassis, and not necessarily where they want to.

2013 McLaren vs 2012 showed what happens when you try to reinvent the wheel.

[GhostF1]

Also they have one upgrade available during the season?

Do they? I thought they had to run the same spec all year.

2020 - No engine upgrades permitted in season (same spec since Austria).
2021 - New engine allowed to be introduced at the start and then allowed 1 subsequent upgrade during the season
2022 - As above
2023-2025 - New spec allowed for season opener and this specification will be frozen until next gen engine introduction

I think a ton of people actually don't know this (I'm sure you did). It's what has really hampered Ferrari and Honda this year, not being able to bring an upgrade. We know Renault have almost ceased all development on their current PU and are focusing solely on their new design (looks to be split turbo like Merc & Honda) for 2022. We also know that this year, Honda have been relying on software tweaks alone to bridge the gap as best they can to Mercedes, I guess a happy side effect has been an almost enforced durability test on this years PU, so lots would of been learnt for next years brand new design. It can't come soon enough!

[godlameroso]

Also they have one upgrade available during the season?

Do they? I thought they had to run the same spec all year.

2020 - No engine upgrades permitted in season (same spec since Austria).
2021 - New engine allowed to be introduced at the start and then allowed 1 subsequent upgrade during the season
2022 - As above
2023-2025 - New spec allowed for season opener and this specification will be frozen until next gen engine introduction

I think a ton of people actually don't know this (I'm sure you did). It's what has really hampered Ferrari and Honda this year, not being able to bring an upgrade. We know Renault have almost ceased all development on their current PU and are focusing solely on their new design (looks to be split turbo like Merc & Honda) for 2022. We also know that this year, Honda have been relying on software tweaks alone to bridge the gap as best they can to Mercedes, I guess a happy side effect has been an almost enforced durability test on this years PU, so lots would of been learnt for next years brand new design. It can't come soon enough!

Honda has also been pushing the power limts, the power units seem to handle most of the abuse they can throw at it. Bodes well for what they can achieve next year.

[Cassius]

Do they? I thought they had to run the same spec all year.

2020 - No engine upgrades permitted in season (same spec since Austria).
2021 - New engine allowed to be introduced at the start and then allowed 1 subsequent upgrade during the season
2022 - As above
2023-2025 - New spec allowed for season opener and this specification will be frozen until next gen engine introduction

I think a ton of people actually don't know this (I'm sure you did). It's what has really hampered Ferrari and Honda this year, not being able to bring an upgrade. We know Renault have almost ceased all development on their current PU and are focusing solely on their new design (looks to be split turbo like Merc & Honda) for 2022. We also know that this year, Honda have been relying on software tweaks alone to bridge the gap as best they can to Mercedes, I guess a happy side effect has been an almost enforced durability test on this years PU, so lots would of been learnt for next years brand new design. It can't come soon enough!

Honda has also been pushing the power limts, the power units seem to handle most of the abuse they can throw at it. Bodes well for what they can achieve next year.

I was thinking the same.

Can RB's closure of the gap with Mercedes and Alpha Tauri's move up the ranks of the midfield be partly explained by Honda being more confident about reliability and therefore putting the engine in a higher mode for quali and race?

[Sieper]

It must be. Aero is so important (you would think most important at these speeds) but the real gains are somehow I feel still always connected to PU gains, be it either electrical or ice.

[godlameroso]

Or any battle. Now RBR can just about sniff at heels. Last year they were closer in the closing stages. Allthough perhaps the tracks suited them better and these have all been Corona canceled. Max was guardedly positive for coming weekend, the track should be ok for the currents car strengths. Let’s see. And then indeed how that develops over the winter.

I am as always between hope and fear. Merc has not made many updates last months. Plus the rumoured air intake update. If they make 2 big steps RBR needs 3 big ones. Plus Ferrari was very optimistic about their engine. A year in the doghouse and now reckoning is over?

You need very good downforce at Yas Marina. You'd think because sector 2 is just 2 straights and a chicane that top speed would be important. To be honest with you, having engine power through turns 2 and 3 is probably more important for lap time. But if you use all the horses through 2 and 3 you go faster and need more downforce to stay flat.

Then in sector 3, you need boatloads of rear downforce because you lean on the rear axle so much, and of course you need a strong front end, because the more front wing you can carry the less chance you have of locking the fronts letting you trail brake deeper into the corners. Very important for turn 17, and for the exit of turn 19. There's only one issue with having a lot of downforce, and that's on the final corner, because of the slight undulation on corner exit, having a lot of downforce, and in effect a heavier car, can upset the rear more than a lower downforce level. Just something the driver needs to be mindful of, but ultimately lots of downforce is faster.

[Wouter]

[Revs84]

In this podcast Gary Anderson talks about the peaky nature of RB16, something which a lot of people are still very sceptical about.

He also answers a few other interesting questions.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-and ... -to-drive/

On a separate note, Albon's attitude in the latest 'Not on the sofa' episode by Red Bull, does not seem one of a person who's on his way out after the next race. At least that's not the impression I get - unless he's just playing along with this marketing feature.

[godlameroso]

Seems 2021 downforce reduction has been nullified. If the changes were aimed at reducing rear downforce by 10%, maybe it was successful, but the amount gained through development over the start of this year means the cars are basically starting next year with this year's Silverstone level of downforce. The big unknown is the new more massive tires, it's really annoying how heavy they are now, to add 3kg is ridiculous.

[bosyber]

Isn't that sort of the point - that at least they won't have more downforce right from the start - so I suppose it sort of worked then? Not sure. Anyway, we heard talk that Mercedes got back to this years level already, good to know Red Bull seems to be there too; with the car remaining similar I'd hope this time they can start chasing right from the start then, would be good to see.

[etusch]

Seems 2021 downforce reduction has been nullified. If the changes were aimed at reducing rear downforce by 10%, maybe it was successful, but the amount gained through development over the start of this year means the cars are basically starting next year with this year's Silverstone level of downforce. The big unknown is the new more massive tires, it's really annoying how heavy they are now, to add 3kg is ridiculous.

How stupid that. Aiming lower spending due to pandemic and freeze things, then a change for saving tyres(according to their talk) , caused more spending without nearly any benefit for saving tyre from df pressure.
Why they didn't change tyre instead of aero. It would make only one company to spend instead of 10. If fia has intention to slow down cars by changing aero rule and wanted to shot two birds with one bullet, it didn't worked and there was no need to hurry about it. they can do that for 2022.

[godlameroso]

Seems 2021 downforce reduction has been nullified. If the changes were aimed at reducing rear downforce by 10%, maybe it was successful, but the amount gained through development over the start of this year means the cars are basically starting next year with this year's Silverstone level of downforce. The big unknown is the new more massive tires, it's really annoying how heavy they are now, to add 3kg is ridiculous.

How stupid that. Aiming lower spending due to pandemic and freeze things, then a change for saving tyres(according to their talk) , caused more spending without nearly any benefit for saving tyre from df pressure.
Why they didn't change tyre instead of aero. It would make only one company to spend instead of 10. If fia has intention to slow down cars by changing aero rule and wanted to shot two birds with one bullet, it didn't worked and there was no need to hurry about it. they can do that for 2022.

F1 logic, forcing teams to spend money to stand still, because they're going to spend money no matter what to develop. Since they can't stop development they try to make it harder, so that it costs more to develop with the hope of helping the smaller teams.

Take the banning on variable cam timing or lift, that means to develop the best compromise an OEM has to build countless iterations, test them, then run them. But if the use of variable cam timing and lift(which are commercially available and road relevant) were allowed, it would save a tremendous amount of development costs. Those technologies are already well developed, and would spare you from the tedious iterative design process, countless cam grinds, timing gears, pneumatic systems.

That one little change would have a knock on effect and lower costs substantially, but no, F1 logic.

No doubt the OEMs have development engines which let you try different things quickly. It's impractical to have 10 different cam grinds, and 20 different cam timings.

[Wouter]

[JordanMugen]

2020 - No engine upgrades permitted in season (same spec since Austria).
2021 - New engine allowed to be introduced at the start and then allowed 1 subsequent upgrade during the season
2022 - As above

Will a 2021 spec Honda unit really be so uncompetitive in 2022 on, if Red Bull insist on using the Honda and an early December 2021 power unit freeze cannot be agreed?