[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[SmallSoldier]

A few questions.

1. As per the 2021 regulations, what all can be updated using tokens?
2. What are the implications of having those revised floors, brake ducts and diffusers?
3. Can teams claw back the downforce the lost to the new regs by other means?
4. Are McLaren at a disadvantage as they can't use development tokens?
5. How can these regulations shake up the grid?
6. Why did McLaren opt for the PU change in 2021? Did they do it so that they can iron out the problems involved in integrateing a different PU in 2021 and focus on higher ambitions in 2022?

1. I’m trying to find the link I had to the Table defining how many tokens each part change required and will try to post it as soon as I can... Nevertheless, the Tokens (2 per team) allow changes to chassis components, such as the monocoque, front floor structure, impact structures, plank assembly, rear wing adjuster, gearbox and associated parameters, inboard suspension, brakes, auxiliary oil tanks and more... The important thing to note is that the 2 tokens limit considerably what you can do, for example if Mercedes wants to make a change to their gearbox, they will use both their tokens on that change (and with RP buying the gearbox from Mercedes, they will have to use both of their tokens also in order to get the new version).

2. The changes for next year have the intention of reducing the downforce the cars can generate, there is concern that since the tires that will be used in 2021 are “the same” as in 2020 that with the expected increase of downforce the teams create during winter, that the tires wouldn’t be able to manage the loads... Therefore, the regulations intentions was to reduce downforce by 10% with those changes... The rumor mill is that teams have already managed to recover the lost downforce (Mercedes)... The floor is the biggest component on the expected reduction, the cut that has to be implemented will reduce it’s overall area and the lack of the slots at the edge will make it harder to not only seal the floor, but manage the air disturbance from the rear tires... The smaller vertical fins in the diffuser should also reduce the effectiveness of the floor in general to create downforce.

3. Answered a bit in the previous ones, but yes, the expectation is that the teams will claw back the loss of downforce... It won’t be much different than what happened with the introduction of the new front wings, which were supposed to slow the cars down by 2 to 2.5 seconds per lap... At the end, the teams are still braking records on track.

4. Yes they are since they won’t be able to update other chassis components, but Mclaren has been working during the season to introduce parts that would have required a Token during this season, therefore reducing the impact of the lack of available Tokens.

5. How can it shake up the grid? That’s a tough one since no one knows what the teams are working on and what will be the effect of this changes, not only that, since they can only focus on a very limited number of parts because of the tokens it will probably depend on who can make the most improvement in one of their weakness areas... I wouldn’t expect a “grid” shake up because of this though, Mercedes and Red Bull will continue to be at the front... Mclaren, Renault, Aston Martin and Alpha Tauri will continue to fight for the midfield crown... The big unknown is Ferrari since their problems seem to be related to their aero and engine and they can upgrade both of them without Tokens, therefore they could be the ones making the biggest jump in terms of performance.

6. Mclaren signed a contract with Mercedes in 2019 to start using their PU in 2021... The intention was to use the new PU with the new regulations, once Covid hit and the decision was made to postpone the new regulations to 2022, Mclaren had to make the change in PU’s, the contract with Mercedes was already in place and they didn’t have a contract with Renault for 2021... In the end, it could be a blessing in disguise, a season to get used to the new PU, to start working with the Mercedes engineers and iron out problems as you mentioned... But it wasn’t the plan to do so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mwillems]

A few questions.

1. As per the 2021 regulations, what all can be updated using tokens?
2. What are the implications of having those revised floors, brake ducts and diffusers?
3. Can teams claw back the downforce the lost to the new regs by other means?
4. Are McLaren at a disadvantage as they can't use development tokens?
5. How can these regulations shake up the grid?
6. Why did McLaren opt for the PU change in 2021? Did they do it so that they can iron out the problems involved in integrateing a different PU in 2021 and focus on higher ambitions in 2022?

1. I’m trying to find the link I had to the Table defining how many tokens each part change required and will try to post it as soon as I can... Nevertheless, the Tokens (2 per team) allow changes to chassis components, such as the monocoque, front floor structure, impact structures, plank assembly, rear wing adjuster, gearbox and associated parameters, inboard suspension, brakes, auxiliary oil tanks and more... The important thing to note is that the 2 tokens limit considerably what you can do, for example if Mercedes wants to make a change to their gearbox, they will use both their tokens on that change (and with RP buying the gearbox from Mercedes, they will have to use both of their tokens also in order to get the new version).

2. The changes for next year have the intention of reducing the downforce the cars can generate, there is concern that since the tires that will be used in 2021 are “the same” as in 2020 that with the expected increase of downforce the teams create during winter, that the tires wouldn’t be able to manage the loads... Therefore, the regulations intentions was to reduce downforce by 10% with those changes... The rumor mill is that teams have already managed to recover the lost downforce (Mercedes)... The floor is the biggest component on the expected reduction, the cut that has to be implemented will reduce it’s overall area and the lack of the slots at the edge will make it harder to not only seal the floor, but manage the air disturbance from the rear tires... The smaller vertical fins in the diffuser should also reduce the effectiveness of the floor in general to create downforce.

3. Answered a bit in the previous ones, but yes, the expectation is that the teams will claw back the loss of downforce... It won’t be much different than what happened with the introduction of the new front wings, which were supposed to slow the cars down by 2 to 2.5 seconds per lap... At the end, the teams are still braking records on track.

4. Yes they are since they won’t be able to update other chassis components, but Mclaren has been working during the season to introduce parts that would have required a Token during this season, therefore reducing the impact of the lack of available Tokens.

5. How can it shake up the grid? That’s a tough one since no one knows what the teams are working on and what will be the effect of this changes, not only that, since they can only focus on a very limited number of parts because of the tokens it will probably depend on who can make the most improvement in one of their weakness areas... I wouldn’t expect a “grid” shake up because of this though, Mercedes and Red Bull will continue to be at the front... Mclaren, Renault, Aston Martin and Alpha Tauri will continue to fight for the midfield crown... The big unknown is Ferrari since their problems seem to be related to their aero and engine and they can upgrade both of them without Tokens, therefore they could be the ones making the biggest jump in terms of performance.

6. Mclaren signed a contract with Mercedes in 2019 to start using their PU in 2021... The intention was to use the new PU with the new regulations, once Covid hit and the decision was made to postpone the new regulations to 2022, Mclaren had to make the change in PU’s, the contract with Mercedes was already in place and they didn’t have a contract with Renault for 2021... In the end, it could be a blessing in disguise, a season to get used to the new PU, to start working with the Mercedes engineers and iron out problems as you mentioned... But it wasn’t the plan to do so.


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I want to address point 4 as it seems to be a common held idea that I can't get my head round, or can't agree with.

In the eyes of the FIA it is not a disadvantage, and this is reasonable. The FIA believe that the new engine is an upgrade in performance that that other teams would not have had unless they brought in the tokens.

The FIA see all the performance data of the engines and made this call, so I doubt it is not true or that the engine won't push us forward.

However, the spirit of the rules to pass this years cars to next year, means that to not then give other teams the chance to make a little time up, we would actually be at an advantage from swapping the engines.

Also, whilst we can't change the chassis apart from where it is required, there will still be the ability to have some tighter packaging in some areas too, just not to the extent of Merc or RP, as far as I am aware. So the idea that we are getting shortchanged next year doesn't resonate with me I'm afraid.

The only place I see us getting short changed is with the lack of testing, which isn't great if you are bedding in the engine. One problem alone could lose a 1/3 of the testing time in the coming winter testing.

[the EDGE]

A few questions.

1. As per the 2021 regulations, what all can be updated using tokens?

1. I’m trying to find the link I had to the Table defining how many tokens each part change required

Page 100

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-19_1.pdf

[SmallSoldier]

A few questions.

1. As per the 2021 regulations, what all can be updated using tokens?

1. I’m trying to find the link I had to the Table defining how many tokens each part change required

Page 100

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-19_1.pdf

Thank you bud!!!

For whatever reason I kept looking into the 2021 Technical Regulations and there was no reference to it! Saving it again


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SmallSoldier]

A few questions.

1. As per the 2021 regulations, what all can be updated using tokens?
2. What are the implications of having those revised floors, brake ducts and diffusers?
3. Can teams claw back the downforce the lost to the new regs by other means?
4. Are McLaren at a disadvantage as they can't use development tokens?
5. How can these regulations shake up the grid?
6. Why did McLaren opt for the PU change in 2021? Did they do it so that they can iron out the problems involved in integrateing a different PU in 2021 and focus on higher ambitions in 2022?

1. I’m trying to find the link I had to the Table defining how many tokens each part change required and will try to post it as soon as I can... Nevertheless, the Tokens (2 per team) allow changes to chassis components, such as the monocoque, front floor structure, impact structures, plank assembly, rear wing adjuster, gearbox and associated parameters, inboard suspension, brakes, auxiliary oil tanks and more... The important thing to note is that the 2 tokens limit considerably what you can do, for example if Mercedes wants to make a change to their gearbox, they will use both their tokens on that change (and with RP buying the gearbox from Mercedes, they will have to use both of their tokens also in order to get the new version).

2. The changes for next year have the intention of reducing the downforce the cars can generate, there is concern that since the tires that will be used in 2021 are “the same” as in 2020 that with the expected increase of downforce the teams create during winter, that the tires wouldn’t be able to manage the loads... Therefore, the regulations intentions was to reduce downforce by 10% with those changes... The rumor mill is that teams have already managed to recover the lost downforce (Mercedes)... The floor is the biggest component on the expected reduction, the cut that has to be implemented will reduce it’s overall area and the lack of the slots at the edge will make it harder to not only seal the floor, but manage the air disturbance from the rear tires... The smaller vertical fins in the diffuser should also reduce the effectiveness of the floor in general to create downforce.

3. Answered a bit in the previous ones, but yes, the expectation is that the teams will claw back the loss of downforce... It won’t be much different than what happened with the introduction of the new front wings, which were supposed to slow the cars down by 2 to 2.5 seconds per lap... At the end, the teams are still braking records on track.

4. Yes they are since they won’t be able to update other chassis components, but Mclaren has been working during the season to introduce parts that would have required a Token during this season, therefore reducing the impact of the lack of available Tokens.

5. How can it shake up the grid? That’s a tough one since no one knows what the teams are working on and what will be the effect of this changes, not only that, since they can only focus on a very limited number of parts because of the tokens it will probably depend on who can make the most improvement in one of their weakness areas... I wouldn’t expect a “grid” shake up because of this though, Mercedes and Red Bull will continue to be at the front... Mclaren, Renault, Aston Martin and Alpha Tauri will continue to fight for the midfield crown... The big unknown is Ferrari since their problems seem to be related to their aero and engine and they can upgrade both of them without Tokens, therefore they could be the ones making the biggest jump in terms of performance.

6. Mclaren signed a contract with Mercedes in 2019 to start using their PU in 2021... The intention was to use the new PU with the new regulations, once Covid hit and the decision was made to postpone the new regulations to 2022, Mclaren had to make the change in PU’s, the contract with Mercedes was already in place and they didn’t have a contract with Renault for 2021... In the end, it could be a blessing in disguise, a season to get used to the new PU, to start working with the Mercedes engineers and iron out problems as you mentioned... But it wasn’t the plan to do so.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I want to address point 4 as it seems to be a common held idea that I can't get my head round, or can't agree with.

In the eyes of the FIA it is not a disadvantage, and this is reasonable. The FIA believe that the new engine is an upgrade in performance that that other teams would not have had unless they brought in the tokens.

The FIA see all the performance data of the engines and made this call, so I doubt it is not true or that the engine won't push us forward.

However, the spirit of the rules to pass this years cars to next year, means that to not then give other teams the chance to make a little time up, we would actually be at an advantage from swapping the engines.

Also, whilst we can't change the chassis apart from where it is required, there will still be the ability to have some tighter packaging in some areas too, just not to the extent of Merc or RP, as far as I am aware. So the idea that we are getting shortchanged next year doesn't resonate with me I'm afraid.

The only place I see us getting short changed is with the lack of testing, which isn't great if you are bedding in the engine. One problem alone could lose a 1/3 of the testing time in the coming winter testing.

I don’t think that it has anything to do with a “performance advantage from the PU”... Initially there wasn’t going to be any Token systems and there was going to be a chassis freeze into 2021... The problem was that Mclaren had to change the engine to a Merc PU, which implied changes to the chassis (it’s not a bolt in part), the rest of the teams of course would have had a problem with Mclaren been the only to make any kind of changes to the chassis (which Mclaren is supposed to avoid any other improvements beyond the installation of the PU, which I’m sure they are pushing as much as they can).

The Token was a compromise to let Mclaren install the new PU, not in order to compensate the other teams for a performance advantage for Mclaren... We all expect a bit of improvement from it, but that wasn’t the consideration.


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[the EDGE]

1. I’m trying to find the link I had to the Table defining how many tokens each part change required

Page 100

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-19_1.pdf

Thank you bud!!!

For whatever reason I kept looking into the 2021 Technical Regulations and there was no reference to it! Saving it again


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

1 year out lol, the changes officially took effect this year

Agree with everything you said, will be interesting to see what changes to the packaging the FIA have let McLaren get away with & how tight they can make the rear because of this

I think the this will be the biggest issue for our competitiveness, not the loss of tokens because as you say, with most worthwhile changes requiring 2 tokens all teams are very limited

Interesting piece on Ted’s notebook on Sunday about how Mercedes DAS works, wondering if they will use their tokens to remove it now it’s banned or leave it on and not use it and spend the tokens changing front suspension as they will not longer be able to use it to work the tyres when needed.

If they don’t re-do the suspension then they could be in trouble at re-starts

[mwillems]

Duplicate Post.

[mwillems]

I want to address point 4 as it seems to be a common held idea that I can't get my head round, or can't agree with.

In the eyes of the FIA it is not a disadvantage, and this is reasonable. The FIA believe that the new engine is an upgrade in performance that that other teams would not have had unless they brought in the tokens.

The FIA see all the performance data of the engines and made this call, so I doubt it is not true or that the engine won't push us forward.

However, the spirit of the rules to pass this years cars to next year, means that to not then give other teams the chance to make a little time up, we would actually be at an advantage from swapping the engines.

Also, whilst we can't change the chassis apart from where it is required, there will still be the ability to have some tighter packaging in some areas too, just not to the extent of Merc or RP, as far as I am aware. So the idea that we are getting shortchanged next year doesn't resonate with me I'm afraid.

The only place I see us getting short changed is with the lack of testing, which isn't great if you are bedding in the engine. One problem alone could lose a 1/3 of the testing time in the coming winter testing.

I don’t think that it has anything to do with a “performance advantage from the PU”... Initially there wasn’t going to be any Token systems and there was going to be a chassis freeze into 2021... The problem was that Mclaren had to change the engine to a Merc PU, which implied changes to the chassis (it’s not a bolt in part), the rest of the teams of course would have had a problem with Mclaren been the only to make any kind of changes to the chassis (which Mclaren is supposed to avoid any other improvements beyond the installation of the PU, which I’m sure they are pushing as much as they can).

The Token was a compromise to let Mclaren install the new PU, not in order to compensate the other teams for a performance advantage for Mclaren... We all expect a bit of improvement from it, but that wasn’t the consideration.


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I think it unlikely that it wasn't part of the consideration. I doubt that if we were moving from Merc to Renault that a token system would have been introduced

Mclaren have been instructed to avoid performance gains from the chassis wherever possible, and from. other changes such as suspension changes.

The FIA would not come out and openly say the Merc is better, it is unspoken but clear as they are trying to remove every other performance gain from the swap that they can except for the engine.

Aside from that, my point was that we are not at a disadvantage. How do you think we will lose time to the other teams, for instance?

[SmallSoldier]

Page 100

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 6-19_1.pdf

Thank you bud!!!

For whatever reason I kept looking into the 2021 Technical Regulations and there was no reference to it! Saving it again


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

1 year out lol, the changes officially took effect this year

Agree with everything you said, will be interesting to see what changes to the packaging the FIA have let McLaren get away with & how tight they can make the rear because of this

I think the this will be the biggest issue for our competitiveness, not the loss of tokens because as you say, with most worthwhile changes requiring 2 tokens all teams are very limited

Interesting piece on Ted’s notebook on Sunday about how Mercedes DAS works, wondering if they will use their tokens to remove it now it’s banned or leave it on and not use it and spend the tokens changing front suspension as they will not longer be able to use it to work the tyres when needed.

If they don’t re-do the suspension then they could be in trouble at re-starts

If the PU change allows for a tighter body in the rear end, Mclaren should be able to do so, since that would be considered as an aero change and no tokens required... For some reason I believe the biggest key might be in regards to wheel base change if it has to change because of the new PU.

Regarding Mercedes, I’m with you, I always thought that they would need to use their 2 tokens to get rid of DAS, but my guess is that they are going to maintain but have “inoperative”, I would find ir really interesting if they don’t use them somewhere else.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SmallSoldier]

I don’t think that it has anything to do with a “performance advantage from the PU”... Initially there wasn’t going to be any Token systems and there was going to be a chassis freeze into 2021... The problem was that Mclaren had to change the engine to a Merc PU, which implied changes to the chassis (it’s not a bolt in part), the rest of the teams of course would have had a problem with Mclaren been the only to make any kind of changes to the chassis (which Mclaren is supposed to avoid any other improvements beyond the installation of the PU, which I’m sure they are pushing as much as they can).

The Token was a compromise to let Mclaren install the new PU, not in order to compensate the other teams for a performance advantage for Mclaren... We all expect a bit of improvement from it, but that wasn’t the consideration.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think it unlikely that it wasn't part of the consideration. I doubt that if we were moving from Merc to Renault that a token system would have been introduced

Mclaren have been instructed to avoid performance gains from the chassis wherever possible, and from. other changes such as suspension changes.

The FIA would not come out and openly say the Merc is better, it is unspoken but clear as they are trying to remove every other performance gain from the swap that they can except for the engine.

Aside from that, my point was that we are not at a disadvantage. How do you think we will lose time to the other teams, for instance?

You clear have a very strong position in regards to the Tokens been introduced because of that, so I don’t think anything I can say will change that

But, the reality is that Mclaren had to make changes in the chassis to accommodate the new PU because it’s not plug and play (from different layout, to different cooling and routing of parts)... Those changes to the chassis because of the installation wouldn’t have been possible because of the chassis freeze... A mechanism to allow them to make those changes needed to be implemented and the rest of the grid had to approve them, the Token system was the best compromise under those circumstances.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mwillems]

I think it unlikely that it wasn't part of the consideration. I doubt that if we were moving from Merc to Renault that a token system would have been introduced

Mclaren have been instructed to avoid performance gains from the chassis wherever possible, and from. other changes such as suspension changes.

The FIA would not come out and openly say the Merc is better, it is unspoken but clear as they are trying to remove every other performance gain from the swap that they can except for the engine.

Aside from that, my point was that we are not at a disadvantage. How do you think we will lose time to the other teams, for instance?

You clear have a very strong position in regards to the Tokens been introduced because of that, so I don’t think anything I can say will change that

But, the reality is that Mclaren had to make changes in the chassis to accommodate the new PU because it’s not plug and play (from different layout, to different cooling and routing of parts)... Those changes to the chassis because of the installation wouldn’t have been possible because of the engine freeze... A mechanism to allow them to make those changes needed to be implemented and the rest of the grid had to approve them, the Token system was the best compromise under those circumstances.


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I find that quite condescending and more than a little rude. I challenged you, I didn't tie myself to a point of view not attach myself to hyperbole.

I haven't seen anything that suggests it is not the case, only things that suggest it is. I'm open to a change in point of view as always but yeah, cable routing or not, I can't at this point see past the gains made from the engine and some potential packaging improvements, and of course anywhere where we can find loopholes.

They are certainly making changes to the chassis, I dont disagree. I am saying that there will be little or no performance gain coming from it.

"While the Mercedes switch should be a gain, McLaren has agreed to strict analysis from the FIA to ensure the chassis itself is not improved by the changes."
https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-2021 ... -loophole/

[SmallSoldier]

I think it unlikely that it wasn't part of the consideration. I doubt that if we were moving from Merc to Renault that a token system would have been introduced

Mclaren have been instructed to avoid performance gains from the chassis wherever possible, and from. other changes such as suspension changes.

The FIA would not come out and openly say the Merc is better, it is unspoken but clear as they are trying to remove every other performance gain from the swap that they can except for the engine.

Aside from that, my point was that we are not at a disadvantage. How do you think we will lose time to the other teams, for instance?

You clear have a very strong position in regards to the Tokens been introduced because of that, so I don’t think anything I can say will change that

But, the reality is that Mclaren had to make changes in the chassis to accommodate the new PU because it’s not plug and play (from different layout, to different cooling and routing of parts)... Those changes to the chassis because of the installation wouldn’t have been possible because of the engine freeze... A mechanism to allow them to make those changes needed to be implemented and the rest of the grid had to approve them, the Token system was the best compromise under those circumstances.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I find that quite condescending and more than a little rude. I challenged you, I didn't tie myself to a point of view not attach myself to hyperbole.

I haven't seen anything that suggests it is not the case, only things that suggest it is. I'm open to a change in point of view as always but yeah, cable routing or not, I can't at this point see past the gains made from the engine and some potential packaging improvements, and of course anywhere where we can find loopholes.

They are certainly making changes to the chassis, I dont disagree. I am saying that there will be little or no performance gain coming from it.

Didn’t meant to be disrespectful or condescending... If you felt it that way, I apologize.

You haven’t given any facts beyond your believe that FIA had to implement a Token system to allow other teams to improve their cars because Mclaren was getting a better PU, that’s your speculation on why it was done, as far as I know I haven’t found any source to back up that claim, that’s what I’m arguing that the Token system has nothing to do with Mclaren going from Renault to Mercedes and therefore to a PU with more power... It has to do with the fact that Mclaren needed to make changes that weren’t allowed with the Chassis Freeze and therefore if they were going to allow Mclaren to make the required changes to the chassis, they had to also allow the rest of the teams to make a change (because of the way the Token system works, the teams won’t be able to make more 2 changes and in reality probably only one since most changes require 2 tokens).

The changes that Mclaren has to make to their chassis aren’t supposed to bring any benefit to them and the FIA is monitoring all changes to make sure that no additional performance is brought upon because of the change itself... There are some benefits for Mclaren though, from a PU that has more power, to potential layout benefits, COG, tighter packaging, etc... But those aren’t coming because of changes on the chassis itself.


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[mwillems]

You clear have a very strong position in regards to the Tokens been introduced because of that, so I don’t think anything I can say will change that

But, the reality is that Mclaren had to make changes in the chassis to accommodate the new PU because it’s not plug and play (from different layout, to different cooling and routing of parts)... Those changes to the chassis because of the installation wouldn’t have been possible because of the engine freeze... A mechanism to allow them to make those changes needed to be implemented and the rest of the grid had to approve them, the Token system was the best compromise under those circumstances.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I find that quite condescending and more than a little rude. I challenged you, I didn't tie myself to a point of view not attach myself to hyperbole.

I haven't seen anything that suggests it is not the case, only things that suggest it is. I'm open to a change in point of view as always but yeah, cable routing or not, I can't at this point see past the gains made from the engine and some potential packaging improvements, and of course anywhere where we can find loopholes.

They are certainly making changes to the chassis, I dont disagree. I am saying that there will be little or no performance gain coming from it.

Didn’t meant to be disrespectful or condescending... If you felt it that way, I apologize.

You haven’t given any facts beyond your believe that FIA had to implement a Token system to allow other teams to improve their cars because Mclaren was getting a better PU, that’s your speculation on why it was done, as far as I know I haven’t found any source to back up that claim, that’s what I’m arguing that the Token system has nothing to do with Mclaren going from Renault to Mercedes and therefore to a PU with more power... It has to do with the fact that Mclaren needed to make changes that weren’t allowed with the Chassis Freeze and therefore if they were going to allow Mclaren to make the required changes to the chassis, they had to also allow the rest of the teams to make a change (because of the way the Token system works, the teams won’t be able to make more 2 changes and in reality probably only one since most changes require 2 tokens).

The changes that Mclaren has to make to their chassis aren’t supposed to bring any benefit to them and the FIA is monitoring all changes to make sure that no additional performance is brought upon because of the change itself... There are some benefits for Mclaren though, from a PU that has more power, to potential layout benefits, COG, tighter packaging, etc... But those aren’t coming because of changes on the chassis itself.


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No worries. I added a reference and link to my post that the FIA are strictly enforcing no performance gain from the chassis itself. I think I did it as you were replying.

I'll chuck it in here too:

"While the Mercedes switch should be a gain, McLaren has agreed to strict analysis from the FIA to ensure the chassis itself is not improved by the changes."
https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-2021 ... -loophole/

Hence, it does seem that they are trying to ensure that where possible, our improvement is from the engine only, and other avenues open to all teams outside of the tokens. So it appears that Mclaren engine gains = token gains for other teams.

[SmallSoldier]

I find that quite condescending and more than a little rude. I challenged you, I didn't tie myself to a point of view not attach myself to hyperbole.

I haven't seen anything that suggests it is not the case, only things that suggest it is. I'm open to a change in point of view as always but yeah, cable routing or not, I can't at this point see past the gains made from the engine and some potential packaging improvements, and of course anywhere where we can find loopholes.

They are certainly making changes to the chassis, I dont disagree. I am saying that there will be little or no performance gain coming from it.

Didn’t meant to be disrespectful or condescending... If you felt it that way, I apologize.

You haven’t given any facts beyond your believe that FIA had to implement a Token system to allow other teams to improve their cars because Mclaren was getting a better PU, that’s your speculation on why it was done, as far as I know I haven’t found any source to back up that claim, that’s what I’m arguing that the Token system has nothing to do with Mclaren going from Renault to Mercedes and therefore to a PU with more power... It has to do with the fact that Mclaren needed to make changes that weren’t allowed with the Chassis Freeze and therefore if they were going to allow Mclaren to make the required changes to the chassis, they had to also allow the rest of the teams to make a change (because of the way the Token system works, the teams won’t be able to make more 2 changes and in reality probably only one since most changes require 2 tokens).

The changes that Mclaren has to make to their chassis aren’t supposed to bring any benefit to them and the FIA is monitoring all changes to make sure that no additional performance is brought upon because of the change itself... There are some benefits for Mclaren though, from a PU that has more power, to potential layout benefits, COG, tighter packaging, etc... But those aren’t coming because of changes on the chassis itself.


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No worries. I added a reference and link to my post that the FIA are strictly enforcing no performance gain from the chassis itself. I think I did it as you were replying.

I'll chuck it in here too:

"While the Mercedes switch should be a gain, McLaren has agreed to strict analysis from the FIA to ensure the chassis itself is not improved by the changes."
https://the-race.com/formula-1/the-2021 ... -loophole/

Hence, it does seem that they are trying to ensure that where possible, our improvement is from the engine only, and other avenues open to all teams outside of the tokens. So it appears that Mclaren engine gains = token gains for other teams.

Yes... Mclaren isn’t supposed to have any benefit from the change in the PU, that was the agreement to allow them to make the “necessary changes” to integrate the new PU into the current chassis... It was the compromise required, but again it has nothing to do with the Mercedes PU been “better” than the Renault PU... The same situation would have applied if Mclaren went to Honda or Ferrari as a PU since they would have had to make changes to accommodate those units too.

That’s why Mclaren has been introducing changes during 2020 that are intended for the 2021 car, changes that would have require the tokens that they won’t have.

To clarify my point, the Token system wasn’t created because:

Mclaren has a “more powerful PU” therefore we have to allow the other teams to improve their cars.

The Token system was created because:

Mclaren has to make chassis changes to install a different PU, therefore we will allow a chassis change to the other teams too.


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[mwillems]

Yes... Mclaren isn’t supposed to have any benefit from the change in the PU, that was the agreement to allow them to make the “necessary changes” to integrate the new PU into the current chassis... It was the compromise required, but again it has nothing to do with the Mercedes PU been “better” than the Renault PU... The same situation would have applied if Mclaren went to Honda or Ferrari as a PU since they would have had to make changes to accommodate those units too.

That’s why Mclaren has been introducing changes during 2020 that are intended for the 2021 car, changes that would have require the tokens that they won’t have.

To clarify my point, the Token system wasn’t created because:

Mclaren has a “more powerful PU” therefore we have to allow the other teams to improve their cars.

The Token system was created because:

Mclaren has to make chassis changes to install a different PU, therefore we will allow a chassis change to the other teams too.


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Fair play, I think we will agree to disagree on that.

But why the feeling we are disadvantaged? Do you think the Merc PU alone won't offer performance gains? Or perhaps it offers less than the other teams can take from tokens?

In fact, I'll ask what you ask, which is to evidence why it has nothing to do with it being a better PU. it seems to be openly stated by a number of observers. Only the FIA do not state that, but then you'd fully understand why they wouldn't, Ferrari and Renault would not appreciate that public comment from an organisation that has every detail on the engines performance - it would commercially bad and unprofessional.

Another quote, this time from Zak B:

McLaren Racing CEO Zak Brown says having to use tokens to make these changes “is a bit of a bummer because the modifications aren’t necessarily for performance”.

“It’s just getting the engine in,” he said in a fan Q&A last month.

“That being said we think there’s performance to come just in the engine.

“So, while the chassis modifications won’t make us faster, what we’re putting in will.”

https://the-race.com/formula-1/what-mcl ... es-switch/